How many Southern Rifles survived from known gunsmiths?

[AZshot]

I've really enjoyed this forum, the expertise and all the things I've learned.  One of my dreams starting out was to one day find a rifle from my family heritage.  I knew it was a long shot, but I thought it was time to get smart on the rifles made in Mills River, NC so I could begin looking with purpose.  I've learned that without a signature, it's very hard to vouch for who you think made a rifle.  Even with initials, I've had 2-3 rifles that no one could ID.  But I've learned along the way, I've always gotten a lot of help here.  You know who you are, and when I get that Gillespie I'll thank you again.  I know it's a small collecting world too, and have had a few people ask to remain private. 

This all leads me to the question.  How many rifles by desirable makers remain after 200 years?  I know it's a rhetorical question - we don't even know how many were made in a lifetime.  But in my journey I've bought a couple of "known" southern gunsmiths rifles.  And a lot more that I "hoped" were identifiable, but weren't.  But I'm trying to estimate the remaining numbers by what I have found.

William Zollman - Gunsmith circa 1810-1834 Rockbridge Co. VA.  Also a gentleman farmer, he distilled and ran a very large farm.  I'm guessing he didn't make rifles all day every day.  So I'm guessing he may have made 10 or 20 a year.  So 140-280 ever made.  In my research, I found 3-4 others, signed.  That's about a 3% survival rate of known rifles.  Perhaps double or triple that are other Zollmans out there, but not recorded. 

Peden (Thomas and son D. T. both) - These two seemed to be Gunsmiths more than farmers.  Together they made rifles for a long period, at least up to the Civil War.  In my research I've found about 5-6 by both father and son.

Gillespie - These should be the most numerous, since the elder Matthew made rifles, taught 4 sons to make rifles too.  Phillip Gillespie seems to have been the most prolific, with several friends and relatives working in his shop.  To me, this sounds like he worked full-time making rifles too, not just the occasional one to supplement farming.  And it's proposed that others in his shop made rifles and put P.G. on them...to be proven.  They were well received and desirable from the days they were new, until today.  I'd guess that between all the Gillespies there must have been a few hundred made. 
In Dennis' book, "The Gillespie Gunmakers of East Fork NC" I count about 20 signed Gillespie rifles. I think I recall about 4-5 others in other sources not in the book.  And a few get discovered every few years.  I'd say that's about an 8% survival rate if under 500 were ever made.  We don't know.  But it gives me an idea of what your chances of finding a particular maker's rifle are. 

I'm open to discussion.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... great topic, Garrett,.... I also know of two Gillespie guns in private hands here in Henderson Co., and have been told by others that they also have an old family "Gillespie gun", so I am sure there are several more hiding out there with folks who have no interest in them, other than the had belonged to an ancestor,.... a couple years ago, I had put the word out that I would like to get as many LAWING rifles together as we could at the Knoxville show,.... we had 14 together under one roof that day,.... a LAWING "family reunion",... !!! ... I seem to find guns in hiding quite often, but usually they aren't willing to leave home,..... Congrats on your Gillespie find, and post photos soon and perhaps your family connection to the two names,.... regards,.... Cades Cove Fiddler,...

[AZshot]

I was hoping you'd weigh in, you have been a huge contributor to my best rifles.  Thank you.  I agree, for every rifle "known" (in books or on forums) there are probably 3 or more that are "hidden" in private hands.  Maybe a lot more.  I remember the Crackerbarrel restaurant Gillespie find, then read about Pawn shop ones from 30 or more years ago.  I figured I would just have to watch and wait and hope for the rest of my life. 

[Dennis Glazener]

There are many more Gillespies, some signed others without but it's pretty easy to ID an unsigned one hiding under beds and secret closets, etc. Some I have seen (but sworn to secrecy) others only told about. I know of three that were, maybe still are, hidden in a secret compartment, and not even the family is allowed to see them, can you say paranoid

Wanted to comment on your statement

Phillip Gillespie seems to have been the most prolific, with several friends and relatives working in his shop.  To me, this sounds like he worked full-time making rifles too, not just the occasional one to supplement farming.

Yes Philip's initials are found far more than his brothers but a couple of us that have really researched the family agree that more than likely Philip had a lot of his kin (Gillespies and Sittons) working in his shop at various times. We believe if the rifle was made in his shop his initials went on the rifle. Kind of generic brand i.e. refrigerators being called "Frigidaire" regardless of brand. He had a good reputation for building an accurate rifle and his I.D. would have carried weight among the local customer base.

If you look at a large number of Gillespie rifles signed "P * G" you will see a wide range of workmanship. Some are just plain butt ugly, others showing much better work and design.

Philip owned a legal distillery and a large farm. He was really an entrepreneur and had his hands in many projects. I will tell you the apple brandy story sometime when I have more time
Dennis

[AZshot]

Thanks Dennis, I wanted to check in with you about that point.  As we have talked about, my family is Allen, and there were several married into the Gillespie line.  My 4th great grandfather Jesse Owen Allen and several of his children are buried in the Sitton-Gillespie cementary.  Family stories told to my dad in the 1960s were that the Allen's helped the Gillespies in Mills River make rifles. 

[Daryl]

112 last count. Lost the particulars, though.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... the new book on East Tennessee rifles that is in the works now will show many rifles by mountain gunsmiths, most never seen published heretofore,...a great number of guns from this area were made in these mountains where you didn't know if you were in East Tennessee or North Carolina, and it did not matter anyway,.. when I last talked with the researcher / author, he had photographed and recorded specs on over 220 old original rifles,.. This will be a great book,...... CCF

[AZshot]

Sounds like a great one coming. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks Dennis, I wanted to check in with you about that point.  As we have talked about, my family is Allen, and there were several married into the Gillespie line.  My 4th great grandfather Jesse Owen Allen and several of his children are buried in the Sitton-Gillespie cementary.  Family stories told to my dad in the 1960s were that the Allen's helped the Gillespies in Mills River make rifles.

I would not doubt it at all, but it will be hard to prove unless you find some good family history. After Philip and his brother died in E TN (while in the Yankee cavalry!) my GG Uncle John Gillespie (not Mathew's son John) ran Philip's gun shop for a number of years, he shows up in the 1870 Industrial Census of Henderson County, tells how much iron, etc he used. I am pretty sure that one or two of the Sittons also worked with him to some extent, there are at least two rifles around that have Gillespie * Sitton on them. Do you happen to know when he was thought to be working there?
Dennis

[AZshot]

I do not know what era.  I do know that Phillip Lawrence Sitton married Nancy Caroline Allen who is the sister of my ggg great grandfather Jesse.  So we're an allied family with both the Gillespies and the Sittons.  Of course, other Sittons married other Gillespies and vice versa.  It's a confusing thing to follow. These were small mountain communities, everyone knew everyone else.  I'm sure many of my relatives had picknicks and hunting trips together with Gillespies and Sittons.  Also all were members of the same church together, the Mills River Baptist.  I have those church records from Bert Sitton, back in the late 60s he gave copies to my dad. He and my dad corresponded many times, trying to figure out where the elder Allen came from...or went. Because about 5 Allens are buried up there at the Sitton Gillespie cemetery from the mid 1800s. My ggg great grandfather was killed cutting down a tree which fell on him in 1869.  He's buried there.  The story is that the family gathered at anniversaries around that tree stump for many years, holding hands around it and praying.

We discovered details recently of the elder. Interestingly another brother, Joseph Allen, also went with the elder father and two sisters to Tennessee to join the Union Cavalry.  He also got sick in camp and died a few weeks later.  The father and 2 daughters lived the remainder of their lives in Blount County TN.  From what I can tell, the Mills River Allens, his other sons and daughters, never spoke of him again.  At least until 5 years ago no one knew why the elder father disappeared, or was never talked about, an was in an unknown grave.  Now we know - Civil War sides.  At least 4 of his son's were in the Confederate army, staying in Mills River.  One was killed by bushwakers when home convalescing after being wounded. Killed in the field next to the Mills River Baptist Church.  Other bushwackers put all the Allen women in a wagon with nooses around their necks, demanding to know where the men were.  They wouldn't tell, and were released.  I'm sure those memories went a long time....generations. 

It's great to know that your GG Uncle John ran Phillip's shop.  That means my relatives may have worked with yours!

[Dennis Glazener]

If you have those Mills River Baptist Church minutes that Bert Ditton transcribed you have the humorous account of Lawrence Sitton (IIRC) selling apples to Philip Gillespie and Mills River Baptist trying to stop him! I will try to find the page and let you know. My copy is typed so very readable but also many pages yo look through.

Dennis

[AZshot]

Ha!  I don't recall that one, but would love to read it.