Author Topic: Forging a buttplate  (Read 19946 times)

eagle24

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Forging a buttplate
« on: November 19, 2009, 12:43:45 AM »
I have a question about forged butt plates on original rifles.  What have you seen?  Are most pinned and brazed at the heel joint?  Is it more common that the butt plate fits inside the comb tang or butts up against it?  I have seen a couple of original rifles that the buttplate appeared to be 2 pieces independant of each other and held in place seperately with the screws.  Just wondering what the correct options are for a late iron mounted rifle.

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2009, 02:35:50 AM »
 Greg  I have one Original Buttplate and its as you mentioned The Comb or tang overlaps the butt and it is Brazed and Pinned.
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Offline rsells

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2009, 02:45:48 AM »
I have three original rifles, and all three butt plates have two parts that come together and form a joint using similiar surfaces on each.  The top part (comb) does not overlap the back part of the plate.  All three are pinned and brazed.  However, a friend of mine has a rifle I have copied many times over the years and the part of the butt plate coming down the comb of his rifle does overlap the back part.  It is brazed and pinned.  In my part of the world, I have seen them made both ways.
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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2009, 02:55:56 AM »
Hey Greg, very generally speaking I'd say most you'll find will be either flat or curved butted joints, pinned and brazed, although you do see some with the tip of the heel fitted inside the comb. The other variations you mentioned are just as correct - on the right rifle. I have also seen some with the joint riveted together and never brazed or soldered, a couple forge welded, etc.
  I guess you have to think about what you are shooting for - a reproduction of a particular piece,  doing your own thing, or one of the five million options in between those two. Whatever the case it is good to study the guns so you end up with something that makes sense on some level school and time frame wise.
  Unless you don't want to.

  


  .......Hey I think it's fairly safe to assume that Kibler won't be looking at this post so we can use this space to talk freely about him behind his back.  Did you see that hacked together rifle he posted pictures of here a couple days ago? Tool marks all over the thing. Amazing what some people regard as talent.

eagle24

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2009, 03:25:05 AM »
 .......Hey I think it's fairly safe to assume that Kibler won't be looking at this post so we can use this space to talk freely about him behind his back.  Did you see that hacked together rifle he posted pictures of here a couple days ago? Tool marks all over the thing. Amazing what some people regard as talent.

Yeah, saw it Ian.  He has potential if he wasn't so sloppy with his work.  He did say he was trying to get better though. :D

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2009, 09:00:15 PM »
Well I agree he has some potential but that's as far as I'll go for now. Man this is fun, he'll never look here unless somebody alerts him. We could use this post to backstab anybody who we know won't look here. Thanks Greg, you have unknowingly created the secret iron mounted backstabbing cave.

   

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2009, 09:03:22 PM »
Hey Greg, did you get satisfactory answers to your questions? I get carried away sometimes, maybe you have noticed. 

eagle24

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 09:47:26 PM »
Hey Greg, did you get satisfactory answers to your questions? I get carried away sometimes, maybe you have noticed. 

Well, sorta.  I think I am going to try joining one by pinning and brazing, with the butt part butted against the back of the tang (comb return).  Ian, when you do one that way, do you sort of file bevel on each piece so they meet almost like a mitered joint?

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2009, 02:01:05 AM »
 For that type of joint all you really need to do is forge and file a flat mating surface on either piece. A good braze joint will hold so there is really no need to miter the joint. Try knocking one apart with a hammer after it is brazed up, the buttplate will twist up before the joint breaks.
  Get the two pieces to fit tight before you rivet them down. The rivet is really only a temporary means to hold everything in position, after brazing it's job is pretty well done.   

Offline Ken G

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 04:36:28 PM »
Greg,
If I might suggest, use a small nail to join the two pieces together.  With the nail you will have less chance of the rivet melting out and the pieces falling apart while you are trying to braze them.  I've attached a couple of pics.  I like the comb part fitting into the buttplate but have seen them done both ways.  
Ken

I have templates cut for various buttplates.  Makes it easier to make the next one or keep up with changes you need to make.


This shows the comb piec overlapping the buttplate piece.  I use a small nail to hold the pieces together.  After brazing you can easiely file the pieces to match.  





Here's  a little jig I use to hold the pieces while brazing them together.  


I have several wood forms made to tweek the different style buttplates.  Put them in a vise and it will sure help get the curve you are wanting.  


« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 04:36:58 PM by Ken Guy »
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2009, 04:52:50 PM »
Ken,  I love your little set of blocks for tweaking the butt plate.  Once again, a simple idea. 
DMR

eagle24

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2009, 05:24:39 PM »
Ken,

Thanks.  Great ideas and gives me something to think about.  I guess we were on different wave lengths about the brazing, and maybe the forging.  I had in mind that I would forge the two parts and then pin them and braze them in my coal forge.  Also, I was going to attempt making them from heavier stock using the forge.  Are you cold forging from thinner material?  I may be biting of more than I can handle thinking I can hammer them out on the anvil.  I have been working on a hardy tool for forming the tang return and I visited an artist blacksmith a few weeks ago and watched him forging leaves for an ornamental piece he was doing.  The way he formed his leaves looked to me like it would be perfect for making the butt part.  He basically used some different radius pipe halves welded up into hardy tools to make the curves needed.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2009, 06:11:10 PM »
Greg,
I use 16 guage steel.  Most original plates that I have examined closely are not made from very thick material.  
Make your two pieces hot or cold.  I do anneal and form all my comb pieces cold on the below swedge blocks.  If you are wanting to make a buttplate with a specific curve or do the same buttplate over and over then the wood forms will really help.  If you are making a generic buttplate then just get it close to what you want.  I still use the form or small anvil to tweek the shape and get flat spots out.
I do not braze in the forge.  I use a small torch and the jig for that.  
I found the below swedge blocks on ebay.  They have really been a huge help to me on lots of projects.  
Ken

« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 06:12:30 PM by Ken Guy »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2009, 06:22:56 PM »
Pratt, I saw some toolmarks on Kibler's gun, too. Well, maybe one toolmark. But it's there. See, nobody's perfect, not even Kibler.

Back to buttplates, this is pretty cool stuff. Ya know, the old German ornate cast buttplates were also cast in two pieces and then brazed or soldered together. I suspect it would be much more economical to cast two small pieces, and also easier to chase/chisel the parts separately. I have engraved BP's in one piece, and it's a pain.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2009, 06:24:26 PM »
I have seen a fair number of original plates with the heel worn right thru. I suspect these were formed from one piece of sheet, not cast. This would be the rounded heel variety.

Tom
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eagle24

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2009, 08:33:22 PM »
Thanks Ken.  I guess I'm just gonna have to give it a go and see what happens.  Heck, I may have the MIG welder in action before I get done.  I was going to try and do it as traditional as I can first though.  Something tells me brazing in the forge may not be easy.  For that matter, I have an idea pinning the two pieces so they don't move cold won't be an easy task.

J.D.

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 08:58:02 PM »
The few I have done in the forge weren't hard to do, at all. In fact, the hardest and most time consuming part is getting the forge ready.

Never thought of cold forging those plates, but I will try a couple to see how it goes.

The first coupla practice pieces were forged from cast off lawnmower blades, so they were too heavy. The last piece was done from .062" thick scrap material. It is much better to work, but hasn't been brazed, as yet.

Gotta get into the shop this afternoon.

God bless

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2009, 09:47:11 PM »
Certain alloys of steel are made to be formed cold, and others are for forming hot.

Automobile fenders have steel that can be cold formed. Way too thin, tho. Hot rolled steel or cold rolled might suffice. Oh, muffler pipe steel is made to be formed cold.

Lawnmower blades are way too tough and thick. That is a medium carbon steel, and will have to be formed hot.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 09:47:37 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Dave B

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2009, 10:30:05 PM »
I picked up some hand forged mounts off Ebay a long while back. They are very thin from the forged  mounts I made my first go round. The joint looks to be brazed with copper vs brass. The joint is of the over lap style at the bottom but more beveled at the tip where its riveted. The metal is .060 in thickness the pipes are slightly thinner maybe closer to .050






Dave Blaisdell

Offline KentSmith

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 04:24:08 AM »
Actually you can fashion a jig similar to Ken's for the forge, however, I use some channel locks, hold the toe and set the heel in the fire and let the brass puddle on the inside of the buttplate.  Takes longer to build the fire.  I rivet the pieces together to hold everything just so.

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 06:29:06 AM »
Thanks Ken.  I guess I'm just gonna have to give it a go and see what happens.  Heck, I may have the MIG welder in action before I get done.  I was going to try and do it as traditional as I can first though.  Something tells me brazing in the forge may not be easy.  For that matter, I have an idea pinning the two pieces so they don't move cold won't be an easy task.
To braze two pieces in the forge do this:
 I,1. tear down a cold fire and sift it through 1/4 inch chicken wire .
 2. build a fire with a dry pine cone
 3. when the cone is half gone put large chunk of coke around it and on it and blow some light air on it
 4. once she catches add the rest of your coke
II1. wire your two pieces together with bailing wire. You have to have a tight fit with bright metal.
2. make a heavy paste with water and borax
3. place your assembly in a reducing fire with a little wet coal around the outside
4. when the metal gets hot enough to change color, add the paste flux to the joint and reposition the piece joint low.
5 keep adding soft air, finger pressure on the bellows.
when it gets yellow add a piece of copper wire up hill from the joint.
6. at almost welding heat the copper will run, when it does stop the air and break open the fire
7. carefully remove the piece and set on some coke to let cool
8. when cool to touch, file finish
   
 If there is another way to braze, I don't know of it
     Now all of you smiths can practice that trick

Offline Dave B

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 09:13:03 AM »
Danny,
Thanks for that description.
When you say wire it are you talking about using the wire to Keep the corner section (opposit of the riveted end) tightly together?
I could see where having the screw holes  started being and advantage.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Rolf

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 12:05:22 PM »
There is a lot of good info here. Could we save this thread in the tutorial section?

Best regards

Rolfkt

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 04:37:07 PM »
Danny,
Thanks for that description.
When you say wire it are you talking about using the wire to Keep the corner section (opposit of the riveted end) tightly together?
I could see where having the screw holes  started being and advantage.

I keep a roll of bailing or tie wire in my forge toolbox and wrap the parts until they are rigid. For brazing it is a good idea to forge a jig with some bearing surfaces for each part and the angle built in, sort of a rough approximation of the gunstock and wire that in too. The brace should be thick and out of the way of the blast so that it takes the heat better. Use a lot of wire because it will start to burn first, about the time that the copper runs.
 You could flush rivet the joint like armourers did and then braze the joint. Everything would look real slick with just a fine copper line either way.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Forging a buttplate
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 05:56:26 PM »
The comb piece is made over a piece of small round stock.
The "plate" part is made on a large round bar or heavy pipe this forms the "crown" of the plate and almost automatically forms the crescent as the crown is formed. I found this out is teaching the then local knife maker to make buttplates.

File the parts to fit, rivet or screw together. These often show as the brass will flow through the threads and a thin ring of brass will show around the screw when finished, shows on original Hawken shot made plates. I would not trust wire in the forge.

Build a fire in the forge put some borax and scrap brass in the cavity and heat until the brass flows.
Or use a torch.


Dan
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