Author Topic: Newbie needs help!  (Read 1735 times)

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Newbie needs help!
« on: March 17, 2023, 06:21:43 AM »
I'm a newbie both to black powder and to muzzleloaders. I finally pulled out my father's purchase in the mid 50's and began to check it out. It's a presentation half-stock percussion longrifle with German silver from buttplate to the end of the ramrod. Name on the lock is Richard Constable. The patchbox is engraved with "Wm. H. Sidell to R. N. Issacs". The latter received the brevets of Brigadier General in the Union Army. The 30" barrel measures 1.050" across the flats, has a bore of 0.4112" and groove diameter of 0.4034". Land height of 0.0039". Twist is about 1:30 but only determined by looking down the bbl. Tight patches won't spin using a Dewey rod with a ball bearing handle. My question comes from comments in several forums. !:66" seems appropriate for PRB and 1:33" or less is more appropriate for conical bullets. Tipping point seems to be about 1:48". No hard and fast rules but this seems to be the gist of it. And generally, the muzzleloaders have deeper rifling. Does the info I've given provide any guidelines as to a starting point for shooting one-hole groups first time out. Thick or thin patches (the patch should have little problem sealing with the shallow grooves). Anything else? Appreciate any and all help--only have 200 #11's.

Offline L. Akers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2023, 02:25:58 PM »
Could be it's made to shoot a picket bullet and not a prb.

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2023, 07:45:32 PM »
That may explain the false muzzle with a cone and the flat nose bullet starter. Would loading these sugar loafs require a flat nosed brass tipped ramrod to keep them aligned? And it would seem that the patching would differ from that of a PRB.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2023, 08:54:40 PM »
Once a bullet is set through the false muzzle into the bore, a flat or even cone ended rod is all that is needed to push it down. A rod with a recessed nose to fit the bullet would still likely
be best. You didn't say initially that there was a false muzzle. Is there also a bullet mould?
You said;"has a bore of 0.4112" and groove diameter of 0.4034". Land height of 0.0039"."
Your numbers are basackwards. The bore is the smaller number, and grooves the larger.
Yes, it is designed for a bullet, but I would suggest, the rifling at being just barely under .004" deep, is designed for a short naked bullet, not a patched sugar-loaf or picket bullet.
Even .0015" deep rifling will spin a tight patch on a jag. I suspect your patch wasn't tight enough.  I use patches on jags for cleaning all of my modern $#@* with ball bearing ended rods.
They've never non-turned in the rifling & that is even with 9" twist rates. It is possible the balls in the Dewey have flat spots or rusted races or are binding in some way.  The Dewey rods
I have are 30 years old now and still work. Might be as noted, something wrong with the bearings.
Quite a rifle you have there. It should be fun getting it to shoot.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2023, 02:54:21 AM »
Sorry about the bore/groove dimensions. Have two set of mould blocks-both Lyman blocks and probably cut by my father or outside mfg. One is a typical sugar loaf shape with a base dimension of ~ 0.3910 (patched bullet?). The other is belted with a diameter of 0.4020". I'll need to make a ramrod with a recessed brass tip to nearly fit the groove dia. for the belted bullet. Since the bore is 0.4112", is the 0.001" interference sufficient to affect a seal and what hardness lead or lead alloy would be a good choice?

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2023, 07:10:04 AM »
Sounds to me both moulds are too small. You might get the smaller one to shoot in a cloth patch, but the larger one, being .010" smaller than the bore, not sure.
A .010" patch might work with it.  You will need to run it through the false muzzle, and that means it should be just over groove diameter with the patch.
Thus .402 + .010" + .010" = .420". That will give .005" compression in the grooves - could be perfect?
The other bullet would likely need a thicker patch.
I might be inclined to look at .410" bullet moulds in lighter weights, like 180gr., designed for the .41 revolver ctg. & be shot as a grooved lubricated bullet. These would obturate
if cast in pure to about 30:1 lead:tin at the hardest.  I would try pure lead first.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2023, 01:09:50 AM »
Good info, but if this a picket rifle from the mid 1850's and I want to use it as such, what type of setup would be required? The attached chart shows the various attempts my father made to get it to shoot, none of which worked successfully. It seems odd that the sugarloaf bullets shot accurately, but the span of picket guns was only several decades.  Any help would be really appreciated.

Groove: ~0.4112”

Bore: 0.4034”

Bore of False Muzzle: 0.4094” (not rifled)

Picket Bullet Base Dia.: ~0.3910”         0.4112” – 0.3910” = 0.0202” clearance
Belted Picket Base Dia: 0.4020”            0.4112” – 0.4020” = 0.0092” clearance

41 LC heeled bullet: 0.406”/0.388”       0.4112” – 0.406” = 0.0052 clearance
41 LC ILL bullet: 0.386”                       0.4112” – 0.386” = 0.0252” clearance

Round Ball: 0.4074”                            0.4112” – 0.4074” = 0.0038” clearance

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2023, 02:49:22 AM »
So seems what you are calling a false muzzle, is a guide bullet starter. Without pictures, hard to say when verbiage might not be correct to the part.
A guide bullet starter was most necessary for the picket bullet and without a rod with proper cupped end and enlarge part to fit the bore above the cup that fit the nose of the bullet
the bullet could not be rammed home and stay centered. That is vital to the accuracy. Of that bore size and rate of twist of 30", a short picket was about right.
The picket normally has an enlarged middle, with both ends tapered.
Guide bullet starters had a cup-nose that fit over the muzzle. A false muzzle, had 4 protruding pins that fit into corresponding holes around the muzzle. They only fit one way, so the rifling in the false muzzle aligned perfectly with the rifling in the bore.
It seems to me, the bore of the "starter" is a bit too small, asking for obturation of the projectile to match the bore.
To my way of thinking, it should be groove depth, but then, the actual muzzle would have to be crowned to allow the entry of the 'patched' picket - however, maybe Dphar can chime in here.

Closeup pictures are needed (imho), of the actual muzzle and the starter, please.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2023, 03:44:52 AM »
Let's start with photo so we're on the same page.












Offline Frank Barker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2023, 09:49:56 PM »
I highly recommend a copy of Ned Robert's book called The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. It address's this type of gun that you have. That book tells everything that you ever wanted to know about shooting this type of gun. By the way this is a beautiful rifle gun that you have.

Kind Regards
Frank Barker

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2023, 11:11:00 PM »
Ordered it several days ago. Should be here tomorrow. Sounds like a winner. Thanks

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2023, 12:46:32 AM »
Tks for the photos.  1st time I have seen a false muzzle with a smooth bore.  This appears to pre-date those false muzzles that were cut from the end of the barrel, to match the rifling.
When I enlarge the picture of the muzzle, it appears to have a slightly rounded entrance. Hard to tell, but engraving .0011 per side is very little.
As the false muzzle is smooth and undersized to the groove diameter, it must rely upon obturation of the patched bullet to fill the grooves and 'take' the rifling.
A slightly larger, grooved lubricated bullet might just be the ticket for this rifle, as in .410".
The groove diameter is .0022 larger than the false muzzle. This is not much obturation needed, and a short bullet like the grooved heel bullet might just be best.
I would be inclined to look in that direction - of a grooved lubricated bullet.
A rod with bore sized bushing and cupped nose will likely be necessary for either the patched sugar-loaf/picket or the grooved bullet as well. It certainly would not hurt.
A bullet like this is what I had in mind, either with heel as this one, or flat based - appears to be about identical to your mould.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/410-160-grain-41-short-colt-jim410160h.html

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2023, 12:47:49 AM »
Ordered it several days ago. Should be here tomorrow. Sounds like a winner. Thanks

Ned's is an excellent book.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2023, 01:28:25 AM »
Thanks for the help.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9335
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2023, 02:56:50 AM »
Corrct me if I'm wrong but I think the 41 Colt is really .386.IF a modern pistol bullet might work then a cast bullet for a 41 magnum may be usable.
Bob Roller

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2023, 03:36:31 AM »
The original 41 LC was a heeled bullet with a front end of 0.406" and a rear portion of 0.388" like the 22 long rifle bullet design. Haven't checked the 41 mag, but will now.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 03:43:56 AM by schluterjohn »

Offline Oil Derek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2023, 04:23:37 AM »
Ashamed to say that I don’t remember the particulars off the top of my head, however perhaps the old .405. WW designed mould.  I think it is a two stepped bullet: .412 bore to something like .407 at the base. Food for thought.

Offline schluterjohn

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2023, 06:32:33 AM »
There's a lot I don't remember as well. I'll give it a look since it's the first bullet slightly larger than the bore. Most of the alternatives are at bore size and would need to be dead soft lead to obturate and seal off the gas leakage.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15054
Re: Newbie needs help!
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2023, 08:19:44 PM »
I simply looked at mould sizes, by various makers to find one with dimensions that might work, length and diameter.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V