J. Henry rifle parts source needed

[SR James]

Does anyone know of a source for furniture, especially the triggerguard, for J. Henry rifles of the style shown below?

[stuart cee dub]

Several years ago Track offered these ,but not as part of their regular catalog.
Hopefully they were not part of a limited run .Perhaps give Dave or Ethan a call .
If you find that they are still available please let us know .

[rsells]

I have a set of iron butt plate and trigger guard that I have stuck away somewhere.  I doubt I will build a rifle using them and am willing to sell them if you are interested.  If interested, send me a note at rbpodge@twlakes, and I will see if I can find them and give you a price.  I can't remember if I purchased one or two sets!

A builder out of Las Vegas came out with a limited edition run of completed rifles using this type of hardware several years ago.  He would not sell the parts to individuals.  However, Track ended up with some of the parts a few years later and I purchased some parts from them.  I had seen the original rifle in D.C. and like iron mounted rifles, so I have planned on building one for several years.  I have drifted away from the idea and never got the work done.  Track may have some parts.

                                                                               Roger Sells

[SR James]

Roger, sent you an email.
Called Track, the parts are no longer available.

[Chuck Burrows]

FYI - The rifle pictured above (a copy of the original shown in Peacemakers and elsewhere) is NOT an iron mounted Henry despite what even some experts have stated(Charlie Hanson for one, even though he knew better, and as noted several books unfortunately have it illustrated as such).
The original rifle is in fact a signed North Carolina made rifle with a Henry lock and barrel (Henry was a well known supplier of parts as well as completed rifles)- the guard is a later 1840-50 English style used on sporting rifle.
What the 1830-34 iron mounted Henry western trade rifles aka American Pattern looked like is currently unknown (unless there is some new info I'm not aware of); some possibilities are that it looked no different than the brass mounted Henry trade rifles only the hardware was made of iron or it was an early version of the 1834 Henry made New English aka Scroll Model rifle.
As of this point in our current known documentation the only iron mounted Henry's still in existence are some late 1840-50's era halstocks - whether the parts are the same as the earlier guns is not known.

[rich pierce]

Chuck, I'd wondered about that.  Here are some awful snapshots of a beautifully built Henry with architecture rivaling any of Jake or Sam's work, I daresay.   It's listed as a South Carolina contract rifle but the note says it is similar to their trade guns.  This looks like the typical scrollguard Henry.  If/when i build another "plains" rifle, this may be it.

[dannybb55]

That looks just like the English Henry at the Kit Carson Hacienda in Taos, NM. Jim Bridger carried it. The lock is about  inches long and she had a walnut stock. TRS makes all of the parts for that rifle and it was the second most common Henry. Let me know what you find, I want to start that part collection too.

[Chuck Burrows]

Thanks for those pics Rich - Larry Walker and Steve Hill of J. J. Henry Artificers have done a lot of research on reproducing the Henry longrifles in the three major trade rifle patterns:
Lancaster aka American Model - http://web.mac.com/j.henry.artificers/Site/Lancaster_Pattern.html
Old English Model - http://web.mac.com/j.henry.artificers/Site/English_Pattern.html
New English aka Scroll Model  - you can see the similarities for the Scroll Model here:
http://web.mac.com/j.henry.artificers/Site/Scroll_Guard.html

The Henry at the Kit Carson Hacienda in Taos is the Old English Model which had a large 6" Lock, brass fittings including that simple patch box, and walnut stocks.
The New English model came with either a 6" or 5" lock, was generally maple stocked, hada long tang and trigger bar ala the Hawken Brothers, and could be had with either the simple Old English patch box or with the Lancaster model patch box. These were first offered as noted in 1834.

Barrel lengths and calibers varied quite a bit based on orders to the American Fur Company.

[Randy Hedden]

Larry Walker is a member of this board, but I don't remember his screen name??  Maybe he wil see this thread and chime in.

Randy Hedden

[Sean]

Chuck's right on the original gun actually being a Carolina gun.  Don Stith told me some time back that the barrel is signed by a Salem area gunsmith.  I can't recall who.  Look at the comb architecture that the guy copied so nicely.  The lines on the comb running to the tear drop on the wrist are a NC characteristic.  The lock was stamped J. Henry, but the rest is all Carolina.  Evidently Charlie Hanson never had the gun in hand when he published it in his Hawken book and Garavaglia and Worman cited him on it.  The only thing I can say about Henry's iron mounted guns is that they predated the development of the brass-mounted scroll guard (or New English) by at least 4 years and they were referred to as iron-mounted 'American patterns' in the trade records.  This is the same term that they used for standard, brass mounted Lancaster longrifles.  No known examples exist so we can only speculate that they were making iron-mounted Lancasters and not southern guns or Hawken-esque guns.

Larry Walker makes a real nice gun, but I don't think he sells parts.  He goes by Longarm on here.  Last I heard from him he was building his own locks from his own castings for his guns.

Rich, where's that Henry militia rifle at?

Sean

[dannybb55]

By looking at the American Henry Rifles in Nebraska and comparing them to AMF records in Hanson and to Local rifles from Lancaxter built at the same time, so many commas...., Did J Henry start his early patterns by building and piecing out his work to local smiths? His marked rifles varied a bit for the early guns, Any ideas?

[rich pierce]

Sean, that rifle is at the old Boulton Gun Works museum- we went there when visiting Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair in July.  I'd had 3 Yuenglings by the time I took the pictures.  It's east of Allentown off 78- will try to get specifics.  The Honorable Horners put on a great feed and evening for us with tours of the Henry estate (IIRC) and the museum, which is outstanding.

[Sean]

Rich,

That's the gun that is in the Henry of Boulton book.  Does it have the round turned muzzle for the bayonet?  Don't worry about the specifics.  I figured that was where it was, but I just wanted to check.  Yuengling...  Haven't had that in a while.  Used to drink their B&T when we lived up in Syracuse.

Danny,
The Henrys had an operation with JJ's brother in Philly for many years and then dissolved that partnership and JJ built the Boulton gunworks in the late 20's (no certain dates here because my resources are at home).  Neither opperation was a particularly small one.  His guns varied because he had a lot of gunsmiths working for him.  In terms of farming things out, Henry did use piece laborers who worked for so much a part for hardware, locks, etc.  He also seems to have bought parts from other operations.  There is documented evidence of JJ. Henry and his son J. buying locks imported from England.  There are also several guns out there with mixed marking that suggest that when he got a big contract he might go buy some parts frome Geogre Tryon or others.  The Henry markings themselves vary too.  Hanson represents it as a simple change over that guns pre 1836 were marked JJ Henry or JJ Henry and son and after 1836 they were marked J. Henry.  Its not quite so clear cut as that.  There are pre-Boulton guns marked J. Henry and I have seen a Boulton era gun marked J. Henry on the barrel and JJ Henry on the lock.  The supposed J. Henry iron-mounted gun is further evidence that the Henrys also made a lot of $$ in the sale of gun parts as well.  I don't believe there is a Henry stamp on the barrel of that one, but the lock is stamped.  It appears that the Henry operation sold locks, barrels, and mountings over the years and that was a fair portion of their income.  A lot of folks see them as the supplier of AFC rifles, but they did much more than that.  If you totaled up all the guns they sold to AFC it would not account for or support the size opperation that JJ and J Henry built.  They sold to about anybody they could find with money and even got a contract for muskets for Bolivia at one point.

Also, TOW often gets their shorts in a bunch when you post their photos on the internet.  That grumpiness will be directed at the board and not you, so you might want to reconsider posting that one.

Sean

[rich pierce]

yep, turned muzzle.  Same gun.  GREAT looking gun.  When I was at Syracuse I drank Genessee Cream Ale and 12 Horse Ale.  Cheap for a college student.

[SR James]

[
Also, TOW often gets their shorts in a bunch when you post their photos on the internet.  That grumpiness will be directed at the board and not you, so you might want to reconsider posting that one.

Sean


Sorry, I was unaware Track felt that way.  That photo is out of the current for sale inventory, not the archives.  Considering I've already tried to buy parts for such a build from them (unfortunately, they didn't have them) and will undoubtedly wind up buying at least some parts for it from them, can't see why they'd object to what amounts to some free exposure and sales.  But oh well.  Should I remove the pic?

[Chuck Burrows]

I replaced the TOTW pic with one of the original - things are kosher now and yu can see a bit more detail inlcuding the long tang,,,,,,,
Chuck the Mod...........

[SR James]

Thanks Chuck.  I didn't have any other pics that showed this style furniture.

[stuart cee dub]

Reading this thread and looking at the SC militia rifle and at  New English Scroll guard rifle pictured at the JJ Henry Artificers web site has got me interested in this looking into reproducing something similar  .(I missed out on the iron henry furniture years ago at Track)
Where does one find the scroll guard pictured in the JJ Henry site? Is in in fact the one from the Rifle Shoppe or is there another supplier? Is there another guard that could be modified ?

[J.D.]

This may sound a little off the wall, but the scroll guard on the the JJ Henry Artificers web site appears to be very similar to the early Hawken guards. I couldn't see the front finial on the Henry guard, but...could an early style Hawken iron guard be modified to match the JJ Henry guard?

J.D. who is ducking and dodging to avoid whatever may be incomming. 

[Chuck Burrows]

As JD noted this one from Track will be close for the scroll guard:
TG-E-5-B Triggerguard, Hawken Rifle

[Sean]

If I recall correctly the finals on the scroll guard are not flared in the rear, its a bit longer than that one, and it has a tit filed on it.  Also they have a bit of a boss in the front of the trigger bow that, in the case of the Carolina militia gun, was drilled for a sling swivel.  AFC guns had the boss but as far as I know they weren't drilled.  I'll look and see if I can come up with a picture.

Sean

[dannybb55]

Didn't Hanson draw three to scale in the Trade Rifle Sketchbook, all from the museum collection?

[Chuck Burrows]

Here's link to a pic of side and top view of the scroll guard per the good folks at JJ Henry Artificers:
http://www.jjhenryartificers.com/Site/Scroll_Guard.html#3

As I noted the one at TOTW is close, not exact, and with a bit of work (including some brazing), IMO it could be turned into a pretty good rendition without having to make one from scratch - it was the closest commercially available version I could find other than The Rifle Shoppe (IF they have them in stock?? they should be right on) or maybe Reeves Goerhing (sp?) might have something???

[dannybb55]

The only problem with the scroll guard is that it is little represented in the fur trade, it makes a Krider look common. There were a lot of English Rifles, with many options: 40 to 44 in Bbls, Walnut and maple stocks 45 to 54 calibre, maybe even set triggers. What more could you want?

[Sean]

I would not really agree with that comparison.  The scroll guard came later in the fur trade (1835 by the time it hit the field), but it was quite common.  AFC bought a lot of them and so did Chouteau.  Both supplied most of the western fur trade directly or indirectly including places like Bent's Fort.  Krider started in business in Philly in 1826, but no fur trade or government contracts are known for him.  He appears to have gotten into the western business around 1850 through individual hard goods dealers for the emigrant trade and the robe and whiskey trade through independent traders.  His trade rifles were far below the quality of Henry. 

Larry's trigger guard is right on.  I think its the Rifle Shoppe casting.  The trade rifle sketchbook has some minor detail issues on several of the guns in it, but its a good resource.

Sean