Author Topic: runout pictures  (Read 2186 times)

Offline foresterdj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
runout pictures
« on: March 21, 2023, 06:10:25 AM »
First off, the presence of runout does not concern me in the least, I understand not having it left or right, just up or down. To me pointing the bore up making more sense. Anyways, here are some pictures.

Nothing calipered yet, just eyeballed. Muzzle end the bore looks dead centered.



My thumb is on the flat with the Douglas stamping, which convention says to make the bottom flat when installed.

Next is the breach end, again, my thumb on the flat with the stamping. Tapped hole for breach plug looks dead center, bore down inside obviously not.



Wall thickness on the flat where my thumb is seems to be the widest from bore to outer flat and conversely the opposite side seems to be the thinnest. So, if the stamped flat, the one my thumb is on is the bottom flat installed, Then that would mean the bore is higher at the breach than at the muzzle, so the runout is vertically oriented, in this case to shoot low. This then needing a shorter front and higher rear sight. (Assuming bore inside the barrel is straight from end to end and visually it looks to be. Not even sure how variations in there could be measured anyway.)

In my mind, installing just the opposite, placing the stamped flat on top (the flat my thumb is on, where the wall is the thickest) would make the breach end of the bore lower than the muzzle end, which is what you always need to lob a bullet out toward a target. If too much, there is a limit to how low the rear sight could go, but a taller front sight could bring the point of impact at the desired range down if needed.

So the questions are, with a barrel with runout like this, a) am I understanding the up/down correctly and b)would you install to launch the bullet upward? (Stamped flat where the wall is thickest on top?)

Offline skratch

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2023, 12:59:36 PM »
If I'm thinking right, It's late and I'm tired, I would install with the bore up,
breach to muzzle. This would allow a full rear sight.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19522
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2023, 02:36:21 PM »
I’d do it as you suggest.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Goo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2023, 03:57:08 PM »
A certain barrel maker of large esteem in our craft always stamped his barrels on the thinnest flat.  My journey man master advised me always put this makers stamp on  the thinnest flat on the bottom. It is easiest to adjust for elevation instead of side to side or quadrant shot placement
Opinions are expensive. Rich people rarely if ever voice their opinion.

Offline foresterdj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2023, 07:46:10 PM »
Indeed, it has been my understanding that the stamp, on the thinnest flat, would go down, to thus provide an upward launch of the ball (not down or left or right). Thus my original question when the stamp on this barrel is clearly on the thickest flat, there being such a difference that it is easily seen. I will orient with the thinnest flat down when I install the breach plug.

Thank you for confirming thin side down.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2023, 07:55:20 PM »
The muzzle picture looks square as you note. Up or down for the breech, your choice. The higher your sights, the less heat mirage.
If the thin flat was up, both of your sights would/could be higher. Of course, either way, the height of the rear sight will dictate the height of the front sight.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2023, 10:09:00 PM »
   I started building gun in 1974 and Douglas barrels was about the best barrels you could buy. Myself I wish Douglas still made barrels. I have seen many shooters stack 5 shots in one hole at 25 yards offhand.
  Any away, out of all the Douglas barrels I used back then I never hand one with run out. I seen many cheaper barrels back then that hand run out and I believe that's where it comes from and it carried over to other barrels.
  I maybe wrong but I think it was the Sharon barrel company that first started using the so called Plum centered barrels. They took round bar stock and drilled and rifled it, then put it on centers and milled the flats. Before then other companies did the opposite.    Al
Alan K. Merrill

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7907
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2023, 10:53:10 PM »
Does this barrel have 7 cuts? I had thought regular Douglas barrels had 8 cuts except those made for Golden Age Arms which had 7 I think.

Offline foresterdj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2023, 12:21:11 AM »
7 widish flats and narrower grooves, stamped Douglas GAA  .54,   1:48 twist, grooves look to be .012" deep and square.

I made a .45 with a Douglas GAA barrel a couple years ago and it does group well.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2023, 12:52:06 AM »
They certainly appear to be cut, not button swaged.
At .012" deep, they are definitely not buttoned.
The width ratio of lands and grooves, while not ideal, is not as bad as some.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline skratch

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2023, 10:19:03 AM »
As A.Merrill said, a barrel should be contoured to the axis of the bore, even after
straightening if required.

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2023, 01:43:54 AM »
I thought Douglas barrels. 45cal. and above had 1:66 twist.    Al
Alan K. Merrill

Offline sdilts

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2023, 02:40:52 AM »
I thought Douglas barrels. 45cal. and above had 1:66 twist.    Al

Douglas made barrels for Golden Age Arms (stamped Douglas GAA). These have a 1:48 twist. I have one in 45 cal.

Offline Waksupi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Ric Carter, Somers, Montana
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2023, 09:34:36 PM »
Back in the day, a Douglas barrel and a Douglas premium were different in the fact that the premium had no run out. All shot just as good.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: runout pictures
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2023, 03:25:45 AM »
Having owned an '80s flintlock with runout, were I to build a rifle then runout would be something I would check every time, first thing.  Simple and fast to check.  Terrible to discover once the gun is done.