Vintage Picket Rifle Barrel

[schluterjohn]

I have spent the last week in a failed attempt to characterize the 40 cal. barrel on this rifle. I can get a repeatable groove diameter but cannot get a consistent bore diameter from any of the slugs from either the muzzle or breech. I finally resorted to a Cerrosafe cast of the muzzle which I was able to remove without damage after the initial shrinkage. After one hour I tried to get a useful bore diameter, but again the numbers were all over the place. I can see the step between the lands and grooves but have trouble feeling them with a fingernail. I also have failed to get the rifling to spin a patched Dewey cleaning rod and I've tried several, so I can't get an accurate measurement of the twist rate. The procedure works fine on my Sharps Creedmore and '73 Winchester. Ned Roberts in his book mentioned "refreshing" a barrel. Did this mean actually recutting the original rifling (seems really difficult) or reaming the barrel and recutting the rifling and making new bullet molds. This is a vintage picket rifle and I don't want to damage its historical value, but I don't feel that recutting that shallow rifling would have a negative impact and I could use the gun. Any recommendation of a barrelmaker that I might consult with on this problem. Any other pertinent comments from forum members?

[Daryl]

Refreshing is re-cutting the old grooves and tops of the lands, if needed, using lead laps cast in the bore.
I have a few .172" groove diameter barrels, with .002" rifling depth. They are easily tested for rate of twist, using a tight patch on a rod that doesn't even have a rotating handle.
I am having a difficult time understanding how you cannot measure the rifling twist on your barrel, if the rifling has not been removed to start with. A lubricated tight patch on a jag
should work.
As to measuring, is it due to an odd number of lands? This should be evident looking through the barrel, or on the cerosafe casting.

[schluterjohn]

Daryl, I wish I had the answer to the question of measuring twist rate, BUT it is true. I can pick any other gun in the safe and nail the twist rate-just not this barrel. Thus the question about a barrel maker I could talk to about the feasibility of reaming and re-rifling this bbl. Otherwise, I'm probably gonna have to put it back in the safe and get back to restoring 1885 Winchester single shots.

[Daryl]

With such "fine" rifling is original, is not designed for a cloth patched picket bullet, but for a dead soft grooved lubricated or paper patched slug.imho

[Uncle Miltie]

Your rifle was made to use a cloth patched bullet of 1 1/2 calibers or less in length.  It is likely cut with a gain twist, so to accurately measure twist you will need to de-breech the barrel and measure the helix angle of the rifling at the breech and at the muzzle: anything else will be just a guess.  Naked lubricate bullets were never used on picket rifles, they always used a cloth patch.  The difficulty you are having measuring a uniform bore diameter could be because quality target rifles of the time usually had a choked bore, tighter at the muzzle than at the breech.

[Daryl]

I was going by the measurements given as being very shallow & not getting the bearing'd rod to turn - my understanding is VERY shallow rifling was a very soft, paper patched bullet design.
I know picket rifles used cloth patching, but were usually not as shallow as this seems to be - to my understanding.

[Dphariss]

How many grooves? If its an odd number you need the right equlpment to get it correct as you seem to want. Try balls and patches till you find a combination that fits. You can get them in various sizes from Track of The Wolf.
It will likely shoot OK woth a RB. Is it turned round at the muzzle or made for a faslse muzzle. Pickets do not shoot well without a guide starter or  false muzzle and starter.
Picket bullets can be up to 2 calibers long but they have a bearing surface like a RB since the cloth patch will bot work with a long bearing surface bullet.
Some where I have some photos of 40 cal pickets I made in a swage turned out. But can’t find them on this Ipad.
I found that flat base/flat point bullets shot best. And they shot best with a heavy charge os FF Swiss. I would have to look it up but think I settled on 80 gr. After I made a guide starter. Lower charges were useless.

[Uncle Miltie]

Here are 3 views of a .38 caliber picket bullet I use in an old rifle with a gain twist of 1/48" - 1/24", a common rate in those days.  Patterned after a bullet made by Nelson Lewis it weighs 168 grains when made of pure pb.  I use a .010 linen patch lubed with neatsfoot oil and 40 grains GOEX fffg.  Shoots very well at 100 yards.  I have never seen a picket bullet 2 calibers in length and think trying one would not yield accurate shooting.

[schluterjohn]

I think at this point I would like an "expert" appraisalof the barrel. I don't appear to have the ability to characterize the twist rate or the rifling. I appreciate all the interest and advice  from the forum members. But I believe that knowing the specifics of the bbl. should be the logical starting point. So, does anyone have the names of possible "experts" I could speak to with the hopes of sending the bbl. for evaluation? Then maybe I can make use of the patch, load and other info. Oh, and what to make of the non- rifled false muzzle.

[Daryl]

At this time, Uncle Mittie or Dphar are your best bets, those who shoot or have shot them. Being gun makers also helps.

[Uncle Miltie]

Very few people today shoot picket rifles or make tools for them.  On Mothers Day Weekend at Canal Fulton OH we hold a 100 yard match for original slug and picket rifles.  If you can make it there are a few folks you could speak with about your barrel.  I've been shooting picket rifles since the early '90's and was fortunate to have great mentors but they have since passed.  If you would like to post photos of your barrel I will take a look at them and see if I can offer anything else.

[Bob Roller]

Is there not one person here that ever used a small hole gauge? Once the land diameter is accurately established the the depth of ONE groove will tell the tale.
Bob Roller

[schluterjohn]

Bob, yer absolutely right. So, I got my telescoping hole gages out and got good, repeatable groove measurements. All after slamming my palm on my forehead for not figuring this out myself. Must explain my flat forehead. So. the groove is 0.4112" and the bore is 0.4033" leaving a land height of 0.0039". Nothing strange here, so why won't it spin my patched rod? While I measured the high points of the grooves, it still doesn't provide any idea of the shape of the cutter used to cut the grooves. The problem may lie in the shape of the cutter.?
I plan to crown the end of the barrel about 0.002" to ease the slight transition between the smooth "false muzzle" and the groove diameter. This "false Muzzle" is essentially there to hold the bullet starter and ease the patched bullet into the rifling straight. At this point, I could use some coaching on a proper range rod with a bullet tip socket to properly seat the picket bullet.

[Daryl]

The loading rod will have to have a bore fitting collar (2 would be better) (maybe .002" undersized) on it, with a cupped end to fit the nose of the slug perfectly.
If the bore is perfectly even, .001" clearance would be more accurate.
The more perfectly you can seat the bullet on the powder with the nose perfectly centred, the better.

[Uncle Miltie]

If the loading muzzle is original to the gun the last thing you want to do is crown the muzzle between the barrel and muzzle: it will help nothing.

Once you decide on a bullet to use the best way to fit the loading rod to the bullet is to use the cherry made to cut the mold to cut the recess on the end of the loading rod.  Collars of any sort are not needed.

[Bob Roller]

The loading rod will have to have a bore fitting collar (2 would be better) (maybe .002" undersized) on it, with a cupped end to fit the nose of the slug perfectly.
If the bore is perfectly even, .001" clearance would be more accurate.
The more perfectly you can seat the bullet on the powder with the nose perfectly centred, the better.

Daryl is spot on.These picket guns are a set of rules most are not familiar with. My N.G.Whitmore was 40 caliber and I shot it with a ball
and it seemed to be OK.It had a telescope running the length of the barrel and I would not think about removing it and altering the barrel
for a 17A or some similar sight.I had the picket mould with it but thought it was a waste of time and I bought the gun for an investment 
and the association of the maker with the rifle he made for General Grant.The butt stock profile on both guns is identical.I think mine is now or was once owned by a woman shooter in Washington State but I am not sure.Have fun with this one and they are different.
Bob Roller 

[Daryl]

If the loading muzzle is original to the gun the last thing you want to do is crown the muzzle between the barrel and muzzle: it will help nothing.

Once you decide on a bullet to use the best way to fit the loading rod to the bullet is to use the cherry made to cut the mold to cut the recess on the end of the loading rod.  Collars of any sort are not needed.

My thoughts - the smooth bored 'ball starter'  appears to fit up against sharp rifling that will cut the patch as the patched "ball" leaves it to enter the bore, according to the measurements given.
----------------- if the rod is undersized to the bore & does not have a bore fitting collar, the nose of the bullet might not be seated in the middle of the bore, where it needs to be, for accurate shooting, shot after shot.

[Uncle Miltie]

If the muzzle was properly made it will not cut the cloth patch, unless the muzzle was made in modern times by someone who didn't know what they were doing.  If that is the case I would still try loading and firing the rifle before making any changes.

While some Friendship slug shooters use a collar on their loading rod I do not, either on a slug or picket rifle as once the guide starter gets the bullet makes past the choke in the bore sensible use of the loading rod will allow proper seating of the bullet against the powder.  Photos of the muzzle at the barrel and loading muzzle would be helpful.

[Bob Roller]

In 1953 when I first met Bill Large he was buying rifled barrel blanks that were round and then he would usually modify the rifling by
concaving the lands and then using his planer the barrel was shaped to octagon.These rifled blanks were made by John Buehmiller in Montana I think. Also not 100% sure of the spelling.He had a vertical milling machine made by Fray machinery and it was unusually
configured so the bed was unmoveable and the head was moved around to make the cuts.I never tried it so can't comment on it but it
did serve Bill in making breech plugs.He "freshed out" many old barrels and did that by cleaning the groove so a saw type cutter could get started and then when he was satisfied with the grooves then the lands were "dressed" usually with a concave radius that was angled to
make it high on the driving side.Some of these old barrels had hard places in them that would damage the freshing tool and then the acetylene torch was used to "soften" it so the job could be finished.One heavy barrel from Tom Dawson was marked J&S Hawken and had a
hard spot that the torch couldn't anneal and the a reamer was tried and ruined.Next one was carbide left over from WW2 and it barely did
the job but it did it.I don't know if anyone today is trying to "recut" these old barrels but there were several in the late 1940's and early
1950's.Wyatt Atkinson in Kentucky was well known as was Dave Taylor in Southern Ohio and Glen "Fireball"Napier in Kenova WVa a few miles from me.He made some fine rifles and helped Norris Sperry to get started in engraving and he went to the Master Class before cancer
took his life.Glen also encouraged my lock making attempts before I had a useful shop.I never tried to "recut" a barrel and never will but I am glad I knew Bill Large,Dave Taylor and "Fireball"Napier.
Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

Here are 3 views of a .38 caliber picket bullet I use in an old rifle with a gain twist of 1/48" - 1/24", a common rate in those days.  Patterned after a bullet made by Nelson Lewis it weighs 168 grains when made of pure pb.  I use a .010 linen patch lubed with neatsfoot oil and 40 grains GOEX fffg.  Shoots very well at 100 yards.  I have never seen a picket bullet 2 calibers in length and think trying one would not yield accurate shooting.

Very similar to the 40 cal bullets I was swaging.  With a 24” ending twist a 2 caliber bullet is easily doable. But the cloth patch is and issue with long bullets. I was shooting a bullet about 1.5 or 1.7 bores long out of a 48” twist and it was doing fairly well at 200 but liked a lot of powder for a 40 cal. Even at 200 a good RB rifle will give them a run for their money with equal sighting equipment. But the picket will buck the wind  better than a RB.
By the 1850s if not before the serious shooters had given up the “Picket” for 3+ caliber long PP bullets in the “slug” guns.

[Daryl]

There was a picture, taken in the 1850's posted in the book: Firearms of the American West 1803-1865, of the San Francisco Gun
Club. Some of the fellows had cap-lock rifles having turned muzzles for ball/bullet starters, just like the barrels Remington sold on the market.