Author Topic: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered  (Read 4805 times)

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2023, 03:17:45 AM »
Dan, I was favored to get two of Arnie Dowd's Mountain Rifles. The major piece is a marked 'JC' gun with all of the characteristics that your gun and Dana's have. The second rifle has no connection to this discussion, so I won't mention it now. Arnie's JC does lack the heavy oval lock moulding that most seem to have, but everything else is pretty much the same. I'll try to get some photos posted on here on a new thread, but I think that you are on the right track regarding it being a Cross, Soddy-Daisy rifle. The marks are by the breech/barrel tang and are large Roman letters.
Dick

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2023, 05:16:46 AM »
I found John Clements in the 1860 census living in Soddy, Hamilton County, District 12 Tennessee. He's listed as born in North Carolina and 41 years old occupation gunsmith. His son also John 19 years old again listed as gunsmith born in Tennessee.



Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2023, 05:42:09 AM »
Does anyone else see a connection with John Clements birthplace as North Carolina and the North Carolina style trigger guard?

I think it's a good clue that my rifle was made by John Clements senior.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2023, 03:18:57 PM »
Daniel,

She's a beauty and classic Soddy.  Wonderful find.  Glad to know she is in someone's hands that appreciates the school.  The Soddy school is unique.  Just noticed 9 knuckles on the patch box.   

Cheers,
Ken
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 04:40:23 PM by Ken G »
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2023, 06:33:30 PM »
Ken it's interesting you mentioned the 9 buckle box. I had several comments on it at the show. Jan Riser took photos of the box at the show. I know they're more difficult to make than a simpler version. Does anyone have comments on a 9 buckle box especially how it relates to southern rifles?
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2023, 10:28:30 PM »
I have seen one other 9 knuckle box and it was a signed John Clements.  I see more 7 knuckle boxes.  Question:  The patchbox spring is bent and screwed to the box bottom, correct?  Not the type driven in like a nail.

Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline HSmithTX

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2023, 11:57:23 PM »
Thank you Dan!

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2023, 01:33:46 AM »
Ken this one uses screws.




Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2023, 02:31:50 PM »
Thanks for the picture.  The single screw sends to be the typical Soddy method. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Old Time Hunter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2023, 05:31:55 PM »
Dan, Congratulations on your find! I enjoy looking at and, studying all old Southern rifles. Yours is a gem! As others have stated , the only feature on the Soddy`s that I am not tickled with is, the sow belly style lock moldings . But , the smiths around Soddy did`nt ask or, care what I thought!! LOL Very nice find!

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2023, 06:05:36 PM »
Dan, Congratulations on your find! I enjoy looking at and, studying all old Southern rifles. Yours is a gem! As others have stated , the only feature on the Soddy`s that I am not tickled with is, the sow belly style lock moldings . But , the smiths around Soddy did`nt ask or, care what I thought!! LOL Very nice find!

Oh my gosh yes they didn't know we would be interested 200 years in the future!!!
The Soddy features help identify the area and even the when and who made it question. This rifle may have been signed but not legible today.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2023, 06:12:36 PM »
I'm ready to call this rifle as likely made by John Clements senior in the Soddy Daisy area. Probably post 1840 based on his birth year of about 1819 noted in the 1860 census. Percussion lock appears to be original to the gun in my opinion.

Would anyone else like to comment?
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Spalding

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2023, 06:51:30 PM »
Daniel, been studying your pics since you originally posted. Is the buttplate flat or is it slightly convex? Hard to tell in the photos.

The nine leaf patch box jumped out at me right away, along with the lock panels. They don’t even match from what I can see. The builder appears to have accommodated the top rear curve of the lock plate on that side, while the bolt side rear panel is more squared off with straighter rear lines.
If a builder did that today without historic evidence, they’d probably be ridiculed. But it all adds to the character and uniqueness of your rifle.

Bob

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2023, 06:57:02 PM »
Very definitely convex maybe even .250 from the center line.  You're right the lock panels are not the same shape side to side but do match other Soddy guns.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Stonehouse john

  • Guest
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2023, 08:05:55 PM »
Dan,
That is an absolute beauty!  I like everything about it.  Great find!

AZshot,
Is that one of yours stocked in oak?  Chestnut?  Beautiful age on that piece.

John

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2023, 05:14:34 AM »
I think it's walnut also.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Stonehouse john

  • Guest
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2023, 03:47:36 PM »
Hi, it's hard to tell the wood, it's so weathered.  I'm thinking walnut.

Thanks.  Photos loked like it could be something with a bit longer more open grain.  I have a strange affinity for unusual stock woods where the old timers made good use of what they had available to them.  Either way, I like the ones that show their age like that.  Speaks of an interesting past life.

John

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2023, 05:19:07 PM »
Lets stay on topic please. This is about Soddy Daisy rifles and one in particular.

Any more thoughts on my rifle?
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2023, 06:03:03 PM »
Daniel,

The end of the tang has an unused hole.  I assume when it split, they drilled a new hole but looking at the picture it doesn't look like there is a corresponding hole in the stock.  Is there remains of a hole?  No hole might mean the barrel was reused / transferred to a new stock.  OR, it doesn't seem to have any countersink so it happened during building or is it threaded inside?  Like an attachment point for something else? 

Just curious about the extra hole and split.  I've seen plenty long tangs broke but a crack/split like that is a new one to me.

Thanks,
Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2023, 06:53:01 PM »
Thanks Ken for the question!

The extra hole is a mystery to me it's not threaded and does not continue into the wood. The tang itself has been forge welded together at some point. I believe it to be original to the gun because the three screw holes match underneath and there are not any additional holes in the stock.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2023, 06:56:57 PM »
Another thought on the unused hole. It might have been a stop drill hole for a crack at the tip. I'll have another look the next time the barrel is out of the channel.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2023, 07:06:13 PM »
I was thinking a drill catch during construction.  Just move up a little and drill again.
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Online Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5448
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2023, 07:58:42 PM »
 I was wondering if the guns attributed to John sr. Wouldn’t have more N.C. Features, while John Jr. Being born and raised in Tennessee might have adopt the style of that region. Nothin else to do it rainin’.

Hungry Horse

Offline okawbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2023, 08:31:32 PM »
Another thought on the unused hole. It might have been a stop drill hole for a crack at the tip. I'll have another look the next time the barrel is out of the channel.

That’s exactly what it looks like to me. A hole drilled to stop that crack from spreading.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline taterbug

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: Soddy Daisy Newly Discovered
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2023, 05:29:39 PM »
while looking at the tang, are those raised burrs up near the breech?  are those from the breech plug being removed many times over the years?  Just curious if they are part of it's 'history' or something else? 

Oh, and had never noticed the 'oval' shaped lock panel before on other Soddy guns.  Most seemed to be more flat profile on the bottom?  Or was I just not seeing it before?  I was gonna say it was copied from some car makers logo, but of course 'cars' would have been pulled behind a steam engine back then. 

And yes, I love the Soddy guns!  Built just up the valleys a piece from where my dad was born and raised (in a dirt floor cabin until he was 4), and where I have many great memories from my childhood. 

I always enjoy seeing another original from the area.