Lock tuning

[billd]

Could someone give me a few pointers on lock tuning? I have a L&R Queen Anne that I would like to get  a faster lock time from. It's about 15 years old, sparks well and is very reliable, just slowwwwwww. I tried a new mainspring but it didn't seem to make any difference.



Thanks,
Bill

[E.vonAschwege]

What about it is slow?  Slows down too much when it hits the frizzen?  I've only used one L&R (their "classic"), which functions very well, but definitely doesn't have the punch of a Siler mainspring.   

First thing I always do is take a dremel (this is one of the only times I use a dremel), with a polishing wheel, and polish the horn on the tumbler and the tip of the mainspring until they're a mirror finish.  The tumbler axles also get the same mirror polish.  I then take some 600, 1000, and 2000 sandpaper and polish the inside of the lockplate (and then hit it with the polishing wheel where the tumbler comes into contact).  Do the same on the inside of the bridal.  For best results, the bridal and lockplate are then casehardened and repolished.(yes, Kasenit will work, but not as well as the real deal, and you still need to block the lockplate when you quench it). 

Is the mainspring rubbing anywhere on the plate?  If so, before altering anything, give the inside edge of the mainspring a mirror polish too. 

The sides of the frizzen, between the lockplate and the pan bridal are polished, as is the toe - You want that as clean and slick as possible.  I polish and caseharden the frizzen pivot bolt as well.  The frizzen spring shouldn't contact the lockplate where it moves, and should also be polished.  No casting marks or anything. 

I suppose it is possible to make the frizzen part TOO slick, but not something you should worry about now. 

While it won't increase lock speed, I also polish and harden the sear screw, as well as the side of the sear, sear bar, and area where the spring touches.  The tip of the sear spring also gets polished. 

The idea is this:  rough surfaces will produce friction.  You want everything that rubs together to be hard and smooth. 

Hope this is some help,
-Eric

[FG1]

Eric, could you elaborate on blocking the lockplate for quenching ?

[lew wetzel]

so polishing all the parts that move and make contact will reduce the drag on your parts.simple enough!!are there any other tricks to making your lock faster and maybe striking a tad harder....

[billd]

Eric,   
I can't tell what's slow about it, it just has a long lock time.  I mean from the time I pull the trigger to the time the gun goes off is considerably slower than my other guns.  I have a Chambers touch hole liner in the barrel.  The pan is lined up correctly.  Maybe my imagination, but it seems like the hammer falls in slow motion, yet the spark is good.

Thanks,
Bill

[jpldude]

Bill, here is a paper I wrote a while back:

Lock Tuning for Idiots (IOW me!)

Greetings, I was the lucky winner of one of the unmarked Charleville Locks on EBay. I thought somebody would outbid me, but nobody did, 1 more penny & it would have been yours!

Anyway, when I got the thing, it was quickly apparent that it wasn't remotely near a Jim Chambers lock. The flint would literally crash into the frizzen, open it 1/8-1/4" & then everything would stop, and worst of all, no sparks.

Over the last few years I have made Dixon's & listened to Keith Castille's seminar on lock tuning. My choices were a $100 boat anchor (& not a good anchor at that) or what the $#*!: try what Keith has been telling us to do for years: eliminate friction & scrubbing.

#1 was to strip the lock. Sure enough, the inside of the lock plate was "as cast". IOW rough & pebbly! Too much friction! I took sandpaper & files & got the inside of the lock as smooth as I could. I then polished it on my cheapo Sears polisher & had it shining like a new nickel.

#2 was the main spring. Three things needed doing: First, sand the spring on the belt sander so it would not "scrub" the lock plate, IOW you need to sand off just enough to see a "wee smidgen" of daylight between the spring & the plate. Two was to carefully round the toe of the spring where it rides on the tumbler and finally #3 was to polish the entire spring.

#3, the tumbler was next. It already had a small ridge on the plate side, so the whole thing wasn't riding on the plate, finally a break! I tried to put it back in the plate & it wouldn't go back in!! Holy smokes, talk about too much friction! Hmm, Keith didn't mention this problem, what to do? Well, I also went to Jim Chamber's seminar & he mentioned that he lathe turns his tumblers & reams his plates, so the fit is .001" or better. I don't have a lathe (Hint to Santa), but I do have an electric drill & emery cloth. I chucked up the tumbler in the drill, clamped the drill in the vise, cut a strip of emery cloth & went to it. Well not quite, I had to trim the emery strip 2 more times to get it small enough. After a minute or so it went into the plate, no problemo. I also polished the tumbler where the the toe of the mainspring rides.

#4 I didn't want to fool with the sear too much, so I rounded over the nose on the belt sander & polished it.

Time to test it out… I put the lock back together, but instead of using a 12 lb sledge to put the hammer back on the tumbler (like Gepetto did), I used a small hammer & a block of wood & made sure the hammer stood off from the lock plate just an ooch so it wouldn't scrub the lock plate. I found a new flint, positioned it correctly in the jaws & !@*%&@ if it didn't have a 15 lb trigger pull, I finally got it go off & darned if the flint didn't smash into the frizzen, throw 2 sparks & come to grinding halt part way down the frizzen.

Ok, time to go into scientific analytical mode. What hadn't I fooled with? The frizzen spring, maybe it was out of balance with the main spring, Keith had said something about that. Hmmmm, OK, how to test the theory? I remembered that Wallace Gusler used some funny words in "The Gunsmith Of Williamsburg" video, he said something like "the frizzen spring needs to be strong enough to keep the frizzen from flopping around". Not quite how Keith put it, but it got me to thinking. I took the frizzen spring off, set the cocked lock across the palm of my hand & with my thumb, I held the right side of the frizzen shut & with my middle finger, I held the left side of the frizzen shut. I applied just enough pressure with my fingers to keep the frizzen from "flopping around". I tripped the sear & holy sparks batman! I had everything I wanted: sparks to make Jim Chambers proud & and a fully opened frizzen.

OK, back to the belt sander & the bucket of water. I ground & I ground & I ground some more. I finally got the frizzen spring thin enough to where I could pinch it not quite halfway closed, maybe a 1/3. Back onto the lock & bingo, sparks & the frizzen fully open. But wait: now the frizzen flops around in the open position because the toe & heel of the frizzen no longer contact the top of the frizzen spring. Darn, I had ground off too much at the top of the spring where the toe rides. OK, I gave up on propane, mapp gas, little oxygen bottles & little mapp bottles; I got sick & tired of going to Home Depot every time I needed to get something hot, so I bought a full blown OxyAcetylene setup,  I highly recommend it. I found my Brownells Heat Stop Paste, made a big ball of it around the bend of the spring & heated up the spring where the toe of the frizzen rides & put just a little hump in it. Success! The toe & heel of the frizzen stay in contact with the frizzen spring regardless of whether the frizzen is open or closed.

Cock the lock, close the frizzen, press on the sear, press on the sear, really press on the sear & finally good sparks & a fully open frizzen. What about the sear? Well looking at it, it was very apparent that it could double as a garage door spring, so I took it to the belt sander & gave it the frizzen spring treatment. I also rounded over the toe & polished it. Much better: a reasonable military trigger pull, sparks to beat the band & an open frizzen. IOW, I now had a real, usable lock.

I put a few drops of Ballistoll on the contact points tried it again & same as before: good sparks & an open frizzen. Since it's humid here in Houston, I sprayed the lock down with WD40 & decided to call it a day. But since it worked so well, I just had to try it one more time. Cock the hammer, close the frizzen, trip the sear & WHAT!!! 1 lousy spark!!! Not good. How could I go from good to bad in 5 seconds?? Back into the scientific analytical mode, could it be the WD40? I wiped the frizzen with a little mineral spirits & tried again, whew, big sigh of relief, my sparks were back.

Well that's my story on lock tuning. I found it well worth the effort & I have an even better appreciation for the work that Jim Chambers & all the lock makers put into a quality lock. Give it a try before you throw that lock into the junk drawer.

Rgds,

John

[Tom Cooper]

Eric, could you elaborate on blocking the lockplate for quenching ?

I went to our local welding shop and had a bunch of pieces cut out of 1 1/2" x 3/8" strap about 5" long. I drill the holes into the block that line up with the threaded holes in the lockplate and then use spacers to hold the plate about 1/4" off of the block and use mach. screws to bolt the two together, just make sure that your spacers are the same thickness as you do not want to put the plate into a bind.

[gibster]

"I ground & I ground & I ground some more. I finally got the frizzen spring thin enough to where I could pinch it not quite halfway closed, maybe a 1/3."

Since the paper is titled "Lock Tuning for Idiots" (which really does include me), do you grind the frizzen spring in the bend? if not, where?  I have a couple of locks that do the same thing, the frizzen doesn't open fully when the flint strikes it.  I am still getting sparks into the pan, but not like I should.  Thanks.
Gibster

[northmn]

Most of the things recommended help to get spark and more reliable ignition, which are good points.  If you already have good spark and good ignition then these will still help, but how long is the hammer throw?  The faster English style locks have a short snappy hammer throw, utilizing a stirrup between the mainspring and tumbler.  The early fowlers used a long throw with a heavy hammer and were slower.  Also the English put a roller on the frizzen spring so that it snaps open when over center.  What I am strying to say is longer ignition time may be due to design.  A Brown Bess I owned had the most reliable ignition I ever saw for a flintlock, but was slow.  It just took that much longer for the big hammer to travel the longer distance to hit the big frizzen and the big frizzen to open up.   If you lighten your frizzen spring too much you can lose spark as I had one lock I had to increase the spring tension on.  You always file a spring lengthwise down its length so that any scratching is lengthwise.  Finally, how is the touch hole related to the pan?

DP

[billd]

Thank you everyone for your replies.   I think DP may have hit the nail on the head, a longer hammer stroke means a slower lock by design. 

Another thing I noticed, although it may be my imagination. The farther you pull the hammer back, the easier it gets. Shouldn't it get harder as the spring compresses? From half cock to full cock feels very light.

Bill

[Dphariss]

Could someone give me a few pointers on lock tuning? I have a L&R Queen Anne that I would like to get  a faster lock time from. It's about 15 years old, sparks well and is very reliable, just slowwwwwww. I tried a new mainspring but it didn't seem to make any difference.



Thanks,
Bill

If you do not have a vent liner install a good design first. Smallest possible diameter. Often the vent is slow.
Changing one cast mainspring for another is often futile.
Polish one of the mainsprings to about 600 grit on the large visible flats of the upper and lower legs. Polish the toe that bears on the tumbler VERY well.
Make a brass or steel wedge (sometimes just a "block" consisting of some scrap or other will work OK) that will spread the legs on the spring about 1/8" or more, 3/16" is probably better at the tip of the toe for a MAINSPRING. BE CAREFUL that you don't break something.
Now slowly heat the long leg of the spring to a nice blue. NO MORE. Pale blue may be too much. Allow to cool and remove the block and see if this has increases spring tension.
I just did this on the frizzen spring of a L&R "Manton" with good results but only moved this smaller spring about 1/16" or so. I had to heat the mainspring to red and change the curve, 1/4" or so at the hook, of the long leg for more pressure. These 2 things REALLY improved the spark. The mainspring was a POS as received. Still not perfect after reshaping and increasing the bend but not so bad as to have to make one. Looking at frizzen and main springs in this lock I suspect they used somewhat "flat" original springs to make the molds.
This will usually permanently rebend a spring.
Still slow?
Case harden the plate at the tumbler hole
Remove the cock and heat the neck to red and bend the cock jaw surface down just SLIGHLTY 1/16 of an inch at the end of the jaw surface maybe less.
In fact if it sparks good you can do this after the vent liner and leave the springs be. I did this to a L&R late English double throat about 25 years ago (jeez!) and it really helped a LOT in speed and reliability.

Dan

[billd]

So much info I need a breather to digest it.  I did the internal polishing work a while ago.  I think I'll try the stretching & polishing the mainspring trick first. I'm not comfortable trying to bend the cock.

 Just one question for Dan......After heating the mainspring to a dull blue, do I just let it cool on it's own? Actually two questions.....Polishing the legs is just a way to see the color change better?

Thanks,
Bill

[Dphariss]

So much info I need a breather to digest it.  I did the internal polishing work a while ago.  I think I'll try the stretching & polishing the mainspring trick first. I'm not comfortable trying to bend the cock.

 Just one question for Dan......After heating the mainspring to a dull blue, do I just let it cool on it's own? Actually two questions.....Polishing the legs is just a way to see the color change better?

Thanks,
Bill

I just let them air cool but have been known to get impatient. Polish is to watch the color. The better the polish the easier this is for me to see. Also really fast springs generally are relatively light weight and pretty hard in their temper. Heavy springs can use a lot of energy in moving their own weight.
Bending a cock is easier than the mainspring work. Don't really need to take it off the lock if you have a oxy/acet torch.
If the top jaw screw is 1/4x28 you can use a long 1/4 fine thr.  bolt as leverage.
Basically if the lock throws sparks in front of the pan a little downward tip will usually help it.
Dan

[northmn]

Dan has pretty much covered the issue of geometry, which is as important as spring tension and polishing.  You had a lock that you stated was reliable.  That means that the springs are really ok.  If the frizzen pops open properly the frizzen tension is fine.  However if you check the firzzen contact with the spring, and work it manually you will notice as it goes over center it kicks open. That can be adjusted by work on the frizzen leg and its shape.  You can get it to kick open a little sooner by either heating that part with the frizzen screw hole held in a vise for a heat sink and tapping it back or with judicious filing.  The flint as held in the jaws should point to the center of the pan or the far side when at full release. This is to gurantee that the sparks fall into the pan and do not bounce around before setting off the priming.  I had a L&R Durs Egg I put on a rifle I built for another person that would absolutely eat flints and shatter them after a couple of shots.  That required balancing the mainspring and frizzen spring and was no fun but it was a quick lock.  Through the years I learned that a good lock can sometimes be "tuned"  by working it and shooting it.  Like a S&W revolver where the old smiths used to say the best way to smooth one up is to shoot the H--l out of it. 
Again the design is everything.  The Queen Ann is stated to bigger than a large Siler.  Many claim the large Siler is slightly slower than a small Siler.  Big locks are more reliable, little locks are usually quicker.

DP

[Blackpowder Barbie]

If polishing it inside and out doesn't work, and I were a newbie at lock building, I'd lean at that point on sending it to be tuned by someone who has the knowledge base and skills needed for the work to be done.  I always recommend sending a lock to be tuned to LC Rice.  He not only does a good job (for cheap) and has all the intimate working knowledge of both Chambers and L&R locks, but when he returns it to you he will give you a list of the things he did to it and any recommendations for it's future.  That way you can learn without it costing you new parts if too much is done to it.  Our locks come with warranties, but only if the parts are unaltered, so keep that in mind when taking off metal in quantities that are more than just polishing or heating and bending anything. 

To me if you get a commercial made lock that requires more than just a good polish I'd send it back to be fixed by the actual maker before trying some of the things listed above.  Most of the makers I know are more than willing to fix problems that come from their manufacturing facility. 

Finally as I so gingerly stated in a post a few years ago - lubrication is the key fellas!!  I can't even begin to tell ya'll how many dirty, un-oiled locks we get in to "fix" that once cleaned and oiled work great.  So please remember to keep it clean and oil any part that will create friction when it moves.

[Dphariss]

To expand on the lubrication a little..
Some areas of the typical 18th century lock have parts rubbing against each other at high pressure. Foot of the frizzen rubbing on the spring and the mainspring bearing on the tumbler. This is why links and rollers came into use.
I have gone to using a 10-30 or 15-40 synthetic motor oil on firearms that need a lot lube protection with very little lube being used. 15w40 Diesel oil at least the older SAE rated stuff have fairly high contents of anti-wear agents that are specifically designed to protect parts that rub on each other. Adding a little STP Engine treatment will do the same thing to almost any oil.
In the old days the lube of choice was Sperm Whale oil it it could be had.
Anything is better than nothing of course and I have used light weight stuff and was pleased with it. But once I started using synthectic motor oil, Amsoil in this case, I found it was actually really good stuff and just 2-4 small drops will do the inside of a lock and the excess can be wiped off since too much is always bad. I use it on my wife's Sig  and it works VERY well for this. Lot of shooting in a day and it will still be wet and no hardened fouling.
If you don't trust just oil at high pressure points a toothpick can be used to apply EP automotive grease to the frizzen and mainspring contact areas.
Yeah its not HC but I don't think anyone will notice.
Also synthetic is not going to gum up and Amsoil at least will pour to -50/-60F range.

Dan

[northmn]

Dan I give the Amsoil the thumbs up for working at -50 to 60 degrees F.  Give me the thumbs down because I don't work worth a darn at those temps.  Been out in that level of wind chill and get my butt back in ASAP.  That is cold.

DP

[Tom Cooper]

As far as choosing between oil or grease I go with the grease, I have a couple tubes of Outers Gunslick Anhydrous Graphite that I administer with the aid of a syringe aquired from an animal hospital with a fairly generous needle.

The syringe allows pinpoint accuracy and the graphite grease is the best I have tried so far, no muss no fuss and its a clean applicator, the other syringe is lithium grease for my geared tools, lathe etc.

Not sure about the extreame temp use, may have to try it out in the freezer on a lock and see.

[Dphariss]

Dan I give the Amsoil the thumbs up for working at -50 to 60 degrees F.  Give me the thumbs down because I don't work worth a darn at those temps.  Been out in that level of wind chill and get my butt back in ASAP.  That is cold.

DP

I just mentioned it because I had problems at fairly mild temps once with a brass suppository gun.
Dan

[northmn]

I know what you meant Dan, and if it works at that temp it likely will work in more reasonable temps.  Just brought back memories of times when I didn't have either the sense or more endurance than I have now.  One of the problems with the written word, it is too literal and does not always convey the humor you intend it to.
I can really appreciate Barbies comments as most of us assume when someone asks for advice that they have the enough sense to keep the mechanisms clean and oiled.  Working with customers like she does gives a different perspective.  My wifes uncle fixed lawn mowers as a hobby business and claimed the biggest problem he saw was the fact that users would not check the oil and let it run to low.  A lot of us can and have had to tune locks, and modify other parts.  When I started the Siler (Bud Siler owned it yet)  was the best and about the only decent flintlock available.  When I saw an ad in Muzzleblasts for the L&R Hawken in left hand, when they came out, I shot off an order right away.  Must have been one of the earliest customers.  That model of lock has had frizzen spring problems due to the use of casting, but otherwise it is a good lock and is quicker than the Siler due to style. There have been locks I haven't needed to touch, and it appears the Siler I bought from Chambers is one.  There have been others that I have had to really work over.  Lock tuning to me is a basic skill in gun building, just like the ability to dovetail a rear sight or tenons.

DP   

[rich pierce]

Thanks guys; I always learn something new and these lubrication tips are something I've not seen before.

[jim m]

chambers sells and recomends an oil for lubricating locks. I apply with a toothpic. just a drop in the right places. I figure if the oil is as good as their locks, then it's got to be top grade.

[Darkhorse]

I think you are getting the wagon ahead of the horse. It sounds like your main problem here is slow ignition. Meaning most likely a touch hole problem. If this is the case you won't speed up ignition with a tuned lock. It will still be slow but it will be slower, smoother. Even an untuned, slow locks is faster than most shooters can detect.
If you concentrate on the touch hole and get it worked out you'll be amazed at how much faster your rifle fires. After this is worked out is the time for lock tuning.
Just my opinion but this order of process works for me. I use lock tuning mainly to smooth everything up and remove the jar that's detrimental to accuracy. Speeding things up is just a bonus.
By the way what kind of liner and what is the TH diameter your are currently using?

[billd]

Darkhorse,   
It's a Chambers liner and my TH size, if you mean thread size, is 1/4 x 32.

Thanks,
Bill

[billd]

OH, TH means touch hole, duh, one of those days,  it's whatever size Jim puts in his liners.

Bill