Author Topic: Brown Bess Photos?  (Read 14546 times)

Greg Field

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Brown Bess Photos?
« on: November 24, 2009, 03:30:26 AM »
I'm working on a TRS Bess and really need to see some photos of one or more originals, so I can know how much wood I need to take off in final shaping and other details, such as the carving.

Can any of you please point me to any photos you know of on the web or elsewhere?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 05:20:14 AM »
Quite a few years ago, I built a Long Land Pattern Bess from parts I got from TOW, but they came from TRS for sure.  There were no lock screws and the parts set was otherwise complete and made up into a very serviceable gun.  File the flat on the side of the barrel where the lock mates before you inlet the barrel into the stock.  That way, you won't cut away wood on the lock side of the barrel channel where you will need it later.
I've had several originals in my mitts but don't own one, but I paid attention to those builder's details, and the photo below is as close as I could come with the wood provided, and my ability, such as it is.
I can take more pics if you have something particular in mind, since I still own the Bess.

D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 05:35:01 AM »
I'm working on a TRS Bess and really need to see some photos of one or more originals, so I can know how much wood I need to take off in final shaping and other details, such as the carving.

Can any of you please point me to any photos you know of on the web or elsewhere?

A very good book to have is  Of Sorts For Provincials by Jim Mullins. Superb color photos.

Greg Field

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 05:38:43 AM »
Thank-you, Taylor. When you have time, I would appreciate some more photos. I'd like to see how thick the comb should be, how lock panels transition, how long and wide is the flat on the barrel, how "Knobby" the swell around the entry thimble should be, how thick the forearm wood is along the barrel, what's used for a foreend cap, and how the wood terminates near the muzzle. Like I said, not hurry, and I do appreciate your help.

Next time I pass through B.C. I'll buy you coffee or beer or whatever, if you have the time.

Greg Field

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 05:39:22 AM »
I'm working on a TRS Bess and really need to see some photos of one or more originals, so I can know how much wood I need to take off in final shaping and other details, such as the carving.

Can any of you please point me to any photos you know of on the web or elsewhere?

A very good book to have is  Of Sorts For Provincials by Jim Mullins. Superb color photos.

Thanks, James! I will look for that book.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 05:45:39 AM »
Look it up on track of the Wolf and you can see an example of the pictures in it. Awesome! Would love to have a book full of English civilian pieces with pictures like that.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 05:08:59 PM by James Rogers »

Greg Field

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 06:03:35 AM »
Will do. Thanks again!

Offline FlintFan

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 03:55:02 PM »
The best books out there for studying original British ordnance muskets, are: Pattern Dates for British Ordnance Small Arms, 1718 - 1783    and Small Arms of British Forces in America, 1664-1815  Both books are by De Witt Bailey, and currently in print.  They have multiple photos and descriptions of all the variations of long land muskets, including detailed measurements.  If you were going to start with one book on this topic, start with the "Pattern Dates" book, you won't be sorry.   

Daryl

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 04:26:45 PM »
These are some double photo's of Taylor's Bess, the 1728 Version with plug bayonette.


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 08:52:00 PM »
The comb...sort of squarish.


The flat on the side of the barrel, to accommodate the bolster of the lock plate, goes from the end of the breech forward to about where the browning has been damaged just ahead of the frizzen.  That's a 3/8" Chambers White Lightning vent liner, so that'll show you how wide the flat that I made, is.  I'm not sure if what I have done is right, but it worked out well for this build.

The next three are of the palm swell at the entry pipe.  These pics also show how much wood I left along the barrel channel, here at the lower forend.



The next two pics show the wood along the barrel channel in the upper forend...actually the same as the lower forend..about 1/16" with a little flat on the top.


On the Long Land Pattern of the King's Musquet (1st Model Brown Bess) there is no nose piece.  The wood simply ends and is rounded over.  I had to cut it back a little when my bayonette arrived, so you might want to take that into consideration when you are finishing up the muzzle end of the stock.


I'm a shooter, and if a gun has a feature that I can improve to make me shoot better, I make it so.  This next shot shows how I split the bayonette lug and inserted a blade of silver for a front sight.  Remember that these muskets were not aimed.  Volley fire was the tactic.  Infact, this 1st model is aboout the only Bess that has a drop at the comb and heel that allows a shooter to actually aim.  After this, the British straightened out the butt stock to make aiming very difficult, and thus dissuade their troops from aiming.  So that's not a front sight, but merely a bayonette lug.  The finer sight makes aiming more of what I'm used to.

This one shows how I slope the back edge forward to catch light.  I do this out of habit on all my front sights, usually just enough to make a shiny spot that is as deep as it is wide.

The last shot shows the flat again, and how little wood I left along the barrel channel.  the last time I case hardened the frizzen, I drew the temper in the pan cover, and did not polish out the colour that resulted.


My impression of the TRS Brown Bess parts set, and all three of the other guns I've built from their stuff, is good.  The Bess had the hardest piece of black walnut I've had the pleasure to work with.  In all cases the inletting is never oversized, or in the wrong place.  I don't agree with Jesse's instructions on hardening and tempering springs, though.  That's the meat of another discussion.  For more opinions and views of Bess muskets, check out TOW's archives.  I've seen several of them that were a lot nicer built that this beater of mine.  I've shot mine a lot, and won lots of awards with it.  Mine has a .770 bore perfectly uniform from muzzle the plug.  I shoot 84 - 150 grains (depending on the range) of FFg GOEX  a .030" denim patch lubed with practically anything that is not commercially packed as a lubricant, and .735 wheel weight balls.  The gun weighs 11 pounds even, and with the bayonette weighs an additional 14 oz. (all at the muzzle).  I do not shoot mine with bayonette fixed.  I'm afraid of running it through my arm when I load. 
Enjoy your build!!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Greg Field

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 06:02:49 AM »
Thanks! That helps tremendously. Seems like I don't need to remove that much wood. It's a beefy gun.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 07:04:33 AM »
Taylor, I love your Bess. Looks like she's just getting broken in.  Not a beater at all. I used to call mine my
"yard gun"  I carried it all over my property if I wasn't out for anything in particular. Mine has the straighter stock, and took some getting used to re the sight picture. I have since taken to using my Chambers New England Fowler in it's place. More drop...easier to hit with. I hope to take a moose with it.
Patched .735 ball , 140 gr FFg  or Paper cartridge with beeswax, .710 ball and 140 FFg

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 10:36:00 AM »
Thanks Bob.  The first Bess I had was an Italian made gun.  It was .75 calibre and I shot my first moose with it.  It was exactly 100 yards offhand.  I used the same .735 pure lead ball, .020" patch and 100 grains of FFg.  I recovered the ball under the hide on the opposite shoulder, after going through ribs and scapula on both sides, and everything in between.  The moose did not go twenty yards before dropping.  I couldn't have made a better shot with a rifle, of any kind. 
The Bess pictured here is twice the gun that Italian gun was, all 11 pounds of her.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline pathfinder

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2010, 03:24:05 PM »
I finished up my Bess from TRS parts and really appreciate the help from those who know A LOT more than I do. She darn near out shoots my rifles on walk thru courses, and if I don't say so myself, I'm pretty darn good with a rifle.
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2010, 03:37:17 PM »
Taylor, is the top of your barrel matted?
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2010, 04:57:56 AM »
I didn't build either of these but got the chance to "mellow" them out a bit.  ;D
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Offline JTR

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2010, 03:20:08 PM »
Nice job of mellowing! ;D
John
John Robbins

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2010, 09:06:01 PM »
Thanks for once again making my day.  I LOVE early Besses and English guns.

Taylor wrote "Infact, this 1st model is aboout the only Bess that has a drop at the comb and heel that allows a shooter to actually aim.  After this, the British straightened out the butt stock to make aiming very difficult, and thus dissuade their troops from aiming."

This is interesting and something I've never thought about much.  That leads me to another question.  From a shooter's perspective, is the 46" barrel unwieldy compared to a 42" barrel? 

Gus

peterw

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 10:27:58 PM »
Taylor, do I see rear sight on your Bess?

Offline FlintFan

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 10:55:51 PM »
The best "picture" book out right now is the new one by Erik Goldstein, aptly titled "The Brown Bess".  Has a wealth of close up shots and views that you don't see in many of the other books, plus it's in color.  Bailey's books are excellent as well, and include a treasure of historical info, but if you are looking for good photos specifically of Brown Bess's,  definitely check out Goldstein's.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2010, 11:44:13 PM »
For detailed photography of the Land Pattern muskets, get "The Brown Bess" by Stuart Mowbray and Erik Goldstein... the book is about 99% detailed photos of just abut every detail of all the patterns, especially the Long Land muskets but goes up to the late India patterns.

Daryl

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2010, 08:05:41 PM »
Peter - I can answer for Taylor - NO rear sight on that musket.  It does have a tiny "v" cut into the tang/barrel breech 'joint to give an idea of where 'centre' is. It is not a sight, as it does not stand 'proud' or 'above the surface' of the barrel.

Tom - The top of the breech is cross-thatched slightly with a checkering file to reduce glare at the breech. Again, nothing above the plain of the barrel.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2010, 08:43:39 PM »
Quote
From a shooter's perspective, is the 46" barrel unwieldy compared to a 42" barrel?
No difference that I have ever noticed.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2010, 10:08:44 PM »
I didn't build either of these but got the chance to "mellow" them out a bit.  ;D
http://www.fowlingguns.com/gunforsale10.html
http://www.fowlingguns.com/militarygun6

They are quite nice... however I don't see any teethmarks on the lower buutt from buttstrokes during hand to hand bayonet fighting  :o ??? ::) ::)   ;D ;D

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Brown Bess Photos?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2010, 10:33:29 PM »
I didn't build either of these but got the chance to "mellow" them out a bit.  ;D
http://www.fowlingguns.com/gunforsale10.html
http://www.fowlingguns.com/militarygun6

They are quite nice... however I don't see any teethmarks on the lower buutt from buttstrokes during hand to hand bayonet fighting  :o ??? ::) ::)   ;D ;D


I couldn't find anyone around here to buttstroke to give  them authentic marks....any volunteers for my next one? ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?