Lock tumbler mill

[Ameristahl]

Hi all,
        I decided to make myself a tumbler mill even tho my last post received zero responses. Cant say im too surprised nobody was interested, i guess i was hoping more folks were doing this kind of work. Anyway here are a few pictures of my finished lock tumbler mill. I hope to make a tumbler with it in the next few days and post a few more pics of it in action!

[rich pierce]

Great looking cutters. What are the axle measurements on your design?

[Curtis]

Sorry I missed your original posting about making a tumbler mill.  Looks like you did a fantastic job building the mill regardless, that was no easy task!  Here is a link to an old post on tumbler mills that some here have made in the past - some of the photos are missing, sadly including the pics of the fine tumbler mill build by Helwood (Hank).  (Moderator note: I've restored most of the missing photos, but they all have the darn Photobucket watermark.)

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31262.0

Here are a few pics of Hank's tumbler mill I have saved on my computer:



















Curtis

[Bob Roller]

Interesting tool for sure. There are 4 lathes in my shop and that's why I never thought of anything else.
I suggest you get a piece of 1144 "stressproof"for tumblers.It machines as easy as 12L14 and can be
oil hardened and tempered.I used it for over 50 years and no reported problems.I think short bars of
1144 from McMaster-Carr.I used 1 and 1/4" diameter for all lock tumblers and 0-1 for sears and 1018
for bridles.1075 makes good springs and it is another McMaster item.12L14 makes great screws.
Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

What is the final diameter of the shaft that goes through the lock plate and the shaft that fits the bridle on these?

[Ameristahl]

Thats a beautiful tumbler mill! The shaft diameters that the cutters in my mill are creating are .312" and .171". I have both cnc and manual lathes and could turn these tumblers on the cnc with ease, however whats the fun in crafting a traditional long rifle without using traditional tools and methods?!?! It always drives me crazy when i watch one of these youtube blacksmiths and they do a really quick and crude forge job then turn to the power grinder or belt sander to grind off the extra 10lbs of metal. The art lies in the hammer work. Why practice an ancient art with a 4" angle grinder?

[Ameristahl]

Bob, thanks for the info on material!

[helwood]

Greetings Ameristahl,
This is like deja vu all over again.  Studying and the making of the Tumbler Mill was great fun and had lots of help figuring it out when we were at Bowling Green at class.    Gary Brumfield brought the original from CW and said we could stare at it all we wanted but couldn't take it apart.  There were lots of folks in class with Machinists back ground that helped me figure out how it worked.     Thanks Curtis for posting the Pics.  I have been making a Brace of Wheellocks currently and am convinced that a Tumbler Mill was used for the Tumbler there too, but larger.  If you all happen to see Mike Miller's video on making a handmade Lock he borrowed mine for that.   Fun to think about this.     Later, Hank

 

[bob in the woods]

I missed the original post, but would never have been able to help with something that sophisticated !  I am making a " mill"  per the instructions from the Toad Hall booklet which basically is constructed from two files.  Primitive stuff for sure, but it looks like it will work

[Bob Roller]

That is a fine looking tool but I have no "romanticized"ideas about making a lock or anything else.Whatever is consistent with a quality job is fine with me.Power tools,hand tools and most of all,quality materials.I am out of the "game" now but might make a trigger once in a while.
These are simple items and there is no reason to figure out a harder way to make them.
Bob Roller

[Ameristahl]

Haha it doesnt matter to how how anyone wants to make them. Just for me personally i prefer to do it in a manner that brings me the most pleasure. I could make an entire lock programming with mastercam and cutting on a dmg dmu50  5 axis milling machine and hold tolerances to .0001" on everything and i still wouldnt get the same sense of satisfaction as i get by using the old methods

[Bob Roller]

My satisfaction was in getting the lock made and shipped.Being able to make RELIABLE springs is the thing that makes a lock what it must be.Locks were supposed to be the cheapest thing on the gun no matter how finely crafted and $50 was way too much.Fancy wood and good barrels had value but not the lock.Triggers were in the "Gotta be cheeep"category as well.I sent a good many to Germany for target pistols and Schuetzen rifles and was paid what I thought they were worth and there was no trying to get a price cut and it apparently was and still may be an affluent market.
Bob Roller

[oldtravler61]

  Three things matter on a gun. Accurate barrel, quality triggers and the best lock you can get or make. JMHO

[Ameristahl]

Making a lock with intentions to sell for profit is totally different than making a lock for ones personal use and enjoyment. If my intentions were to make locks for sale i would be cnc machining them. Can a quality lock not be made with traditional techniques? Are original locks  made with a tumbler mill garbage cuz they were made with a tumbler mill?

[Bob Roller]

My interest in locks shifted to the fine English caplocks seen on Rigby.Henry.Whitworth and others.Thanks to the late Lynton McKenzie I was able to borrow and try to copy those locks and did succeed in making the 3 and 4 screw styles in rifle and pistol sizes.The rigidity of these designs is evident every time they are cocked.There is resistance to initial cocking and from half cocked to full cocked the resistance goes away.To me.the ones seen on most antique American guns are only an expedient** to get the job done and no pride is reflected in those locks.
I remember getting calls from people who would not pay me for a lock but then wanted me to make mainsprings (mostly) to replace cast springs that broke and spoiled their shooting match and hunting trips.One I really remember was a cast spring that broke and then knocked the bottom off the lock mortise.Wes Kindig who started the Log Cabin Shop said I could sell as many replacement springs as I wanted to make but I had another side line and that was making bronze bearings for older automatic transmissions and reconditioning stator supports for the GM350 units.Five minutes with a lathe and $25 to me.Beats making springs for people who begrudged every dime they had to pay 
if I would have made them.
This is now all in the now long gone days of the 20th century.The **indicates there were some target rifles in the American North East and California that did have better locks but not as good as those from the shops of England,
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

My interest in locks shifted to the fine English caplocks seen on Rigby.Henry.Whitworth and others.Thanks to the late Lynton McKenzie I was able to borrow and try to copy those locks and did succeed in making the 3 and 4 screw styles in rifle and pistol sizes.The rigidity of these designs is evident every time they are cocked.There is resistance to initial cocking and from half cocked to full cocked the resistance goes away.To me.the ones seen on most antique American guns are only an expedient** to get the job done and no pride is reflected in those locks.
I remember getting calls from people who would not pay me for a lock but then wanted me to make mainsprings (mostly) to replace cast springs that broke and spoiled their shooting match and hunting trips.One I really remember was a cast spring that broke and then knocked the bottom off the lock mortise.Wes Kindig who started the Log Cabin Shop said I could sell as many replacement springs as I wanted to make but I had another side line and that was making bronze bearings for older automatic transmissions and reconditioning stator supports for the GM350 units.Five minutes with a lathe and $25 to me.Beats making springs for people who begrudged every dime they had to pay 
if I would have made them.
This is now all in the now long gone days of the 20th century.The **indicates there were some target rifles in the American North East and California that did have better locks but not as good as those from the shops of England,
Bob Roller

My interest in locks shifted to the fine English caplocks seen on Rigby.Henry.Whitworth and others.Thanks to the late Lynton McKenzie I was able to borrow and try to copy those locks and did succeed in making the 3 and 4 screw styles in rifle and pistol sizes.The rigidity of these designs is evident every time they are cocked.There is resistance to initial cocking and from half cocked to full cocked the resistance goes away.To me.the ones seen on most antique American guns are only an expedient** to get the job done and no pride is reflected in those locks.
I remember getting calls from people who would not pay me for a lock but then wanted me to make mainsprings (mostly) to replace cast springs that broke and spoiled their shooting match and hunting trips.One I really remember was a cast spring that broke and then knocked the bottom off the lock mortise.Wes Kindig who started the Log Cabin Shop said I could sell as many replacement springs as I wanted to make but I had another side line and that was making bronze bearings for older automatic transmissions and reconditioning stator supports for the GM350 units.Five minutes with a lathe and $25 to me.Beats making springs for people who begrudged every dime they had to pay 
if I would have made them.
This is now all in the now long gone days of the 20th century.The **indicates there were some target rifles in the American North East and California that did have better locks but not as good as those from the shops of England,
Bob Roller

Of course a useful lock can be made with a minimum of tools.If it will stay cocked long enough  for a shot to be made using sights then that is all that's required.I made this statement more than once on this forum and it says this."When you take a lock or trigger I made out of the box it tells that person what I think of him or her as the buyer and user".
Bob Roller

[Ameristahl]

I actually agree with you, i have no doubt that later locks are of better quality of manufacture. And i get your logic that you should make the best quality product ones skills are able to produce. I just think it would be fun to make a couple in this manner. I do own a beautiful percussion english live pigeon gun and its lock is amazing compared to most other locks ive touched!

[Bob Roller]

I actually agree with you, i have no doubt that later locks are of better quality of manufacture. And i get your logic that you should make the best quality product ones skills are able to produce. I just think it would be fun to make a couple in this manner. I do own a beautiful percussion english live pigeon gun and its lock is amazing compared to most other locks ive touched!

Could you remove this lock and let us see the inside?
That IS the lock and most of us appreciate these fine English locks.
Bob Roller

[Ameristahl]

I was mistaken its been a while since ive had it out of the safe, its actually a philadelphia maker but its an english style live pigeon gun

[Ameristahl]

I also have a 19th century 16ga fowler with a pretty nice lock. I personally think the geometry of the bridle, tumbler, and sear are quite nice

[Ameristahl]

I also think this lock from a swiss 1851 feldstutzer gewehr is worth showing off as well

[Bob Roller]

I was mistaken its been a while since ive had it out of the safe, its actually a philadelphia maker but its an english style live pigeon gun

The English styled gun is a fine one and the first lock I ever saw of THAT internal pattern with the sear turning on a pin and it's a fine lock.
The next lock was probably made by a lock maker that trained on flint locks and that is a mechanism found in flint locks.
The Schweizer Feldstutzer is probably about 10.4mm or 41 caliber. I have made quite  few with a variety of mechanisms and my favorite
was and still is an English style with the bridle on 3 posts and the sear turning on a pin.
The shotgun's lock is an easy one to copy and so is the Feldstutzer's.I still have all my patterns and drill hole locaters for the bridles and
lock plates.I used L&R's Schuetzen plates and hammers and sometimes a better looking hammer designed by Bill Large in 1972.
Thanks a lot for posting these pictures and they ARE appreciated.All but one went to Germany,...maybe.
The dimensions on my tumblers were: .230-.233 thick.diameter 1.250,Shank for the hammer .280-.310 and the support thru the bridle was .140.The material was 1144.It machines like leaded steels and can be hardened the same way as drill rod or 0-1.
  Bob Roller 

[Curtis]

Off topic but I have to mention here that Hank's brace of wheelocks look fantastic so far, and will only improve INMHO!


Curtis

[Ameristahl]

This got me thinking, maybe ill make a tumbler with my tumbler mill and then ill also machine a tumbler on the state of the art 5 axis cnc (dmg-mori dmu50) and ill measure the critical dimensions on both using a starrett cmm and ill create and post inspection reports for both parts so we can see iust how inferior a tumbler made by a tumbler mill is. I think that will be a very interesting study.

[Ameristahl]

Also im not trying to criticize. It sounds like bob does fine work. Since your using modern machine tools like lathes and i assume probably at least a manual mill have you ever considered making your tumblers and sears from a2 tool steel? A2 machines quite well and is lightyears better than 1144 or o1.I would harden and draw the tumbler to  52-54rc and the sear to 50-52 rc. Both strength and wear resistance will be light years better. Also the dimensional distortion of a2 during quench will be significantly less because it is an air hardening tool steel. Theres much less stress from the thermal shock of hitting the quench with air hardening steels. So post heat treat parts will be significantly more accurate which is important especially if your not doing any post heat treat hard turning/ milling operations. After all if your going to make something why not make it the very best it can be?