Load for .58 cal Rice barrel

[flatsguide]

I’m getting ready to work up a heavy hunting load for a rifle I’m building around a Rice .58 caliber round bottom rifle barrel. Looking for a load of plus or minus 110 gns of Swiss 1 1/2 as accuracy dictates. I understand that the round bottom rifling needs thicker patches so therefore a smaller diameter ball. I have a .570” diameter mould, but that might be to large. Planning on using pure lead so any help would be appreciated regarding ball dia. and patch material/thickness.  Along those lines what has your experience been as far as trajectory goes such as : zero at 25 yards and 100 yards with Xamount of powder.
Thanks Richard

[mgbruch]

Don't know what you intend to put that ball through, but 110 grains is a lot for a .58.  I have a .58 with a Colerain barrel, which also has round bottom rifling.  I shoot 70 grains of 3f, a .562 ball, with a .018 ticking patch.  There are certainly tighter loads possible, but I like to load without a starter.  That load gives great accuracy, is pleasant to shoot, and has put the ball through a whitetail doe, lengthwise, at 60 yards.  I've taken three deer with that rifle, and none of them has stopped the ball.

[smylee grouch]

That 110 gr of 1&1/2 swiss is what I use in my 58. Shoots great and the recoil I think is less sharp with 1&1/2 over 2f. I also like the flatter trajectory with the extra velocity when hunting in open country.

[flatsguide]

Smylee, thanks ! What patch thickness and ball diameter are you using? Round bottom rifling? I understand that there is a much thicker patch requirement with round bottom rifling.
Mgbruch, thank you for the info. I guess we have a different philosophy for myself for deer a fifty caliber with 70 gns would be fine but as I go up in caliber I’m looking for more punch, so why use a reduced powder charge on a .58 caliber rifle. Also the trajectory on reduced loads is greater. Not trying to start an argument.
Thanks Richard

[John Cotterall]

I am almost ready to sight in and develop a load for my first build. It’s a.54 caliber Rice Barrel with round bottom rifling. I didn’t know it would shoot better with a thicker patch. That information will save me some time at the range. Thank you guys 😁

[smallpatch]

Rice round bottom  barrels seem to shoot well with a .005” undersize ball, and a .020 patch.

[smylee grouch]

Hi Richard: John Getz made my barrel 25 + or - years ago and I don't remember twist rate but the round groves are standard depth for that style I guess. I used a 570 with 20-22 thousands denim patch. Bear oil. I clocked it at over 1900 fps with that load. Over 40 deer, one Pronghorn and four Bear with that gun and load. Never had a pass through on Bear with it so have been using a 62 with that powder charge on the last 7 and have had better luck with pass through.

[flatsguide]

Thanks Smylee, sounds like those loads are really putting meat on the table for you. Below is a quick sketch I did for the rear sight I’d like to make for my rifle. As I hope you can see, it has a fixed and one folding blade. From your experience what distance would you calibrate the fixed and folding leaf for with a .58 RB with the velocity your getting with the 110 grain load?
 Thanks again Richard

[smylee grouch]

My 58 and 62 both have one rear sight ( fixed ) blade. The 66 I'm trying to build will have two and I'm hoping to get the fixed blade on at 50, maybe a little less and the folder on at 100 or so with a 4&1/2 dram load of 1&1/2 Swiss.

[Fyrstyk]

I shoot 120 grains of Goex 2f with a .575 ball in  a .015 minkoil lubed patch in my 1:70" radius grooved 32" barrel.  Accuracy is 1" groups 1" high at 25 yards, 2" dead on at 50 yards and about 1" low @ 2.25 inches at 75 yards.  I rarely get shots much beyond 40 yards and with Iron sights I don't trust my eyes much beyond 80 yards. The initial load loads somewhat stiff in a dry bore.  Subsequent loads require a short starter to get the ball started down the bore, but then in goes down with nominal pressure on the ram rod.  I don't know what velocity I am getting, but every deer i have shot with it (from 25-85 yards) has been a one shot drop right there kill.  In the thick laurel cover I hunt in I do not want a deer running off after the shot cause it is very difficult blood trailing on hands & knees.

[mgbruch]

Flatsguide, It's just the differences in how we like to load and shoot.  I don't consider 70 grains of 3f to be reduced in the .58.  In my head it's moderate.  I built it when my eyes were many years younger.  It's sighted in to be 2" high at 50 yards, and at 100 yards it's 3" low.  But after that it does drop like... well, like a lead ball.  At 150 yards it's a full 18" low.  Actual experience tells me that with that load, within 100 yards, that 270 grain lead ball is a thumper.

I don't hunt elk any more, just deer.  Never took an elk with the gun though.  Now my main gun is a .50; and in that I shoot 65 grains of 3f, which I consider to be on the high end of moderate for the .50.  My eyes are older now, so it's sighted in to be on at 50 yards.  I won't shoot at anything over 60 yards without a rest, and 100 yards is too far for me to be shooting at game no matter what.  I've only taken five deer with my flintlocks; and the furthest was 60 yards.  With a rest.

I built my first flintlock over 40 years ago, and that's what works for me.  Having said that, I have a buddy who shoots 80 grains of 2f in his .50.  He's taken 3 elk with the gun, all of them one shot kills.  Some years ago I was acquainted with a gentleman who did like 110 grains of 2f in his .58.  He was an experienced hunter and a good shot, and that's what worked for him.

I learned a long time ago, to ignore paper ballistics when it comes to black powder and round balls.  Fast or slow, those round globs of lead pack a lot of inertia.

[Jeff Murray]

For hunting deer and smaller game I use 90 grains of GOEX 2f in my Getz round bottom 50 caliber, .495 ball and .018 patch.  That load is dead on at 100 yards and has a reasonably flat trajectory.  I go up to 105 grains for elk as above that I don't gain enough velocity to make the extra powder worth while.  My 58 with flat bottom rifling shoots well with charges ranging from 90 to 130 grains of GOEX 2F.  I used the heavy load on buffalo.  The 130 grain load does bite on both ends.

[Mike Brooks]

You folks sure burn a lot of powder.  It isn't velocity that kills with a muzzleloader, it the size of the ball. It will shoot flatter with all that powder but it won't kill any better. Of corse living in the Midwest a 50 yard shot is about average, which is good because I can't see open iron sights anymore.

[alacran]

One of the best riflemen I have ever known, the late Bruce Schwindt, had a great saying. " When in doubt, more powder".

[Mule Brain]

My .58 zeroed at 50yds with 70 grains of fff, needed 80 grains to flatten it out to 100yds

[flatsguide]

Thanks guys, all good information. I’ll let you know what load I decide on along with velocity figures provided from my Oehler 35p and trajectory numbers.
News at 11!
CheersRichard

[Bob Roller]

The FIRST barrel Bill Large made when he got his new and much larger shop running was a 58 caliber octagon barrel with a 1 in 44 twist and 8 grooves.He handed it to me and asked me to build a rifle with it and I did.It was the first REAL muzzle loader I made that was a serious gun.I used a 65 grain load of DuPont 3fg and a .575 round ball mould and a patch that was cleaning patch for the M1 Garand moistened with Black Solve that had silicon as an ingredient. The sights were a Lyman 17A with wide post and a buckhorn rear with elevation adjustment.
I shot it at a minimum of 50 yards and from a rest it would make one ragged hole and a 100 yard load was 90 grains and no need to raise
the rear sight.I still think 25 yards is a pistol shot and a waste of powder and lead with a rifle.The tight fitting ball and that patch and powder combination worked really well.I still have that mould,a Lyman .575 I bought from E.M.Farris in 1953 to use in an Enfield short rifle and it cost NEW,$3.50+tax.
The comment about he 58 being my first real muzzle loader was because the others were restocks and a couple of 22 caliber types in my
high school wood work shop.Also the LAST one was a 58 and apparently a precarve someone started and I made a Ketland flintlock for it and shot it some and then sold it.It was also a full stock walnut with steel butt plate and trigger guard.
In closing,think of those who gave all to keep  the Stars and Stripes flying and others who we knew and loved just for whon and what they
were.
Bob Roller

[doulos]

Ive hunted with a TC Renegade with a Green Mountain .58 roundball barrel. 100 -110 gr 2F Goex was my load most of the time.  About 4.5 inch 5 shot group is the best I can do with open sights without a peep.
.Shot it a few weeks ago. That load is point of aim at 100 meters.
My Stith Hawken has a .58 34 inch Colerain on it. With 100 grains of 3f swiss I usually hit 1725-1745 fps.  I use those loads for no other purpose than flat trajectory out to my max shooting distance of 100 meters.

[flatsguide]

This is me in the Medicine Bow area of Wyoming back in the early 70’s with a .54 cal flintlock I built. It was about an eighty yard shot and the load was somewhere 90=100 gns.hard to believe I was that young. Cheers Richard

[smylee grouch]

Ah youth, fun times for shure. Dont ever give up the dream of outdoor pursuits. Nice Goat. 

[HighUintas]

I’m getting ready to work up a heavy hunting load for a rifle I’m building around a Rice .58 caliber round bottom rifle barrel. Looking for a load of plus or minus 110 gns of Swiss 1 1/2 as accuracy dictates. I understand that the round bottom rifling needs thicker patches so therefore a smaller diameter ball. I have a .570” diameter mould, but that might be to large. Planning on using pure lead so any help would be appreciated regarding ball dia. and patch material/thickness.  Along those lines what has your experience been as far as trajectory goes such as : zero at 25 yards and 100 yards with Xamount of powder.
Thanks Richard

How has your hunting load workup gone? What did you go with?

I need to get one done on my 58, but I can't shoot it well enough to determine best load and I'm busy with hunting, so don't have time to practice at the moment.

[Pukka Bundook]

Richard,
I know you are asking for input about heavier charges, but just want to say when I got my Mark Silver kit from jim Chambers decades ago, I asked about the charge for the .58 42" Don Getz barrel.
Jim told me to try 70 grs 2F so I did and never fixed it, It worked so well I never did increase it and for 9 or ten years used that rifle  for all my hunting, and shot a couple of deer every year with it.
I have a thing about not shooting does usually, and shot some awful big heavy bucks, both whitetail and muley.  I don't think I have one ball I recovered.  All passed through.
One  muley doe I Did shoot, the ball went in her brisket and came out her ham.
I like someone up the page used a .562" with good linen patches, and deer tallow lube and never wanted any more accuracy.

I'd like to say that when I used an old .58 "hawken" style to hunt, I used 120 grs 2F so was a bit sceptical of Jim C's advice to try 70 grs in the .58.
It was sound and not a short range load. It worked to out a little past 100 yards, as far as I would ethically shoot.

Very best,

Pukka.

[Daryl]

In all my hunting rifles  .58 and larger, I used  as much powder as was required to get 2" or smaller groups at 100 yards from a bench rest.
I've had 3  .58's  including a Large barrelled Hawken Taylor built for me that required 140gr. 2F GOEX to shoot it's best, as well as a Zouave that required 120gr. 2F GOEX, the same as the Numrich underhammer. The Hawken shot the best at 1 1/2", while the other 2 shot 2 to 2 1/2". I could not get any of them to shoot better than this  no matter the load I tried. At the time I had the Lyman Black Powder Handbook for a guide & I tested all of these guns up to the maximum charges listed on the book. Some of you older chaps might know what those charges were. I also chronographed the Large barrel with both spit and bear greased patches. The powder today developes slightly more vel. and pressure than did the powders of the late 1970's when I did this "work".
The Large barrel, with 90gr. would not keep 5 shots at 100yards on a paper plate, yet with140gr. shot into 1 1/2", oft times better than that.
I did most of my shooting at 100 yards back then, rarely shooting closer. Bought my first chronograph in 1973.
Patch and balls for all rifles noted was .022" Denim with a .575" pure lead ball cast from a Lyman mould.
The Zouave had .003" deep rifling and the Numrich was .008" deep. The Large barrel, iirc, had .010" deep rifling.

[Pukka Bundook]

Good report Daryl.
I Think what you will find with these heavy charges, is that the ball is upsetting to fill the rifling on ignition, so accuracy is at its best because of the mechanical fit.
I have noticed musket balls with a flat  equator where they have set up to fill the bore.

This does not mean that in Some barrels a lesser charge also works very well.   
My load is likely more dependent on patch than yours.

Best,
R.

[Herb]

This is a .58 flint Hawken I built with a Douglas barrel.



Another 100 yard target.  Swiss 1 1/2 fouled the lower bore badly.  I have found Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F to be much superior to Swiss 1 1/2F in cleanliness and velocity.  I like .562 balls in a .58.