Author Topic: Yet another locked thread?  (Read 3991 times)

Offline AZshot

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2023, 02:26:04 AM »
I'd be for expanding to other American arms of the period.  Schuetzen rifles prior to cartridges and American military rifles' pre Civil War for example.  Those show distinctively American alterations to designs that "came from somewhere else."  The arms of Harpers Ferry seem to relate strongly to the rifles frontiersmen and trappers carried.  Similarly, the arms of the trappers would be great. 
I'm just confused when I excitedly see a new post in the Antique Gun Collecting section, click it, and it's a damascus barrel shotgun from Birmingham.  But even a section on European guns would be ok, if I understood the rules.  All I know is when I joined I used the word "schuetzen" in one post and was quickly admonished to cease and desist.  Another time I mentioned a rifle by name answering a question on black powder shooting, a Mowry, and was told again it's "not to be discussed here."

This is a fairly active forum as forums go, and respectful and helpful.  Far be it for me to try to change that.  If people are happy with European rifles being presented, I'll stop worrying about it.   

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2023, 02:59:21 AM »
The guns of European countries, UK or Continental were the predecessors and inspiration to our early makers and as such should be allowed in these discussions. This JMHO. I also think the best British makers were the best but I still enjoy the study of the great Bavarian smiths too.

Offline Ats5331

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2023, 04:43:14 AM »
Dang this is fun thread to read.

Just my personal opinion, but claiming English gunsmiths are the best no matter what the time period is a bit off.

The American Long Rifle changed the course of the revolutionary war. And Iím pretty sure no English smith made the rifle that killed Simon Fraser at Saratoga.

Yes, I know itís a thousand foot overview of the war and the weapon, but just my opinion!

Thanks all

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2023, 05:33:35 AM »
Rich If I see a thread topic in which I have no interest, I don't click on it.  It's not a hard concept.  Unfortunately I'm interested in most everything and like to learn so I end up spending more time reading through more than I intend!   :)

Just one non-mod opinion.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2023, 02:28:46 PM »
I have an interesting collection of French, Belgian and English guns built for the Indian trade as early as 1720. I have always meant to share them here but have never found time to photograph them. Now I doubt I will, I'm already offensive enough!
 Many of you will find this incredible, but I only read maybe 5% of what is posted on this forum.  Most of it bores me stiff, but you don't see me complaining about it. SCROLL ON BOYS AND GIRLS, you do have to read things you find uninteresting.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2023, 02:40:26 PM »
Rich If I see a thread topic in which I have no interest, I don't click on it.  It's not a hard concept.  Unfortunately I'm interested in most everything and like to learn so I end up spending more time reading through more than I intend!   :)

Just one non-mod opinion.

Eric nailed this and I am in the same frame of mind.Walter Cline wrote of the muzzle loader that was loaded with a patched ball and
Major Roberts wrote of more sophisticated rifles from the Northeast that were cap locks only.I have made locks for both and my two
favorite muzzle loaders were for years a long rifle Southern style walnut with iron trim from a wrecked antique,Bill Large barrel and my
lock and triggers,The other was a fine Whitworth semi military match rifle that had fine wood,a lock by Brazier and Whitworth patent sights
and used a long 45 caliber bullet that weighed 485 grains.The American long rifles brought grief and misery to the British Army and later.
Joseph Whitworth made it a bad idea to be out in the open even at 1000 yards.I do have a definite preference for the fine craftsmanship of the English makers but also for the makers of the American long rifles that had few if any fine tools or a good shop to work in.More than once I regretted the sale of these two rifles but emergency appendectomy in the middle of the night had to be paid for and I sold them.
Bob Roller
PS:Anyone that stops learning is dead from the neck up ;D ;D ;D ;D

Online Robert Wolfe

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2023, 03:40:36 PM »
I have an interesting collection of French, Belgian and English guns built for the Indian trade as early as 1720. I have always meant to share them here but have never found time to photograph them. Now I doubt I will, I'm already offensive enough!


I hope you will Mike. Plenty of interest.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2023, 04:15:55 PM »
"Correct but there is no need when you can purchase an original."
Feltwad

Correct...but this is something that is completely lost on most American enthusiasts. I too have no interest in reproductions. It's a "too each his own" issue for me. If a repro suits your purpose by all means go for it but for me, if it isn't original I'm not interested no matter how nice it is. But, that attitude is so rare that years ago when I was shooting with a Henry Pratt rifle (c.1816) I had someone ask who made it..."Henry Pratt"..."never heard of him"..."Roxbury, Mass"..."I get all the catalogs and I've still never heard of him."

It was usually the case...maybe always, that I had the only original rifle at a match.
Another point is that the cheap fowlers that we see here all the time simply don't exist in Britain. They were made for export. There was no domestic market for them because poor people simply didn't hunt. They couldn't because there was no public land and hunting rights were jealously guarded by the landholders.

And...Original guns usually cost far less than the best repros.

Further to the above...and Feltwad can correct me if I am wrong but with muzzle loaders, original antiques are not subject to licensing. All reproductions are so the legal hoops you would have to jump through to own and shoot a repro are somewhat more stringent. You would need a shotgun license for a repro fowler and I'm not sure if you'd need a (much harder to get) "firearms" license for a rifle or reproduction black powder revolver. Also, you need an explosives license to buy black powder so while collecting original guns is relatively easy, shooting is something else altogether. The lowest quality British fowlers and rifles are probably better than 90% of the export grade guns we see here so there is simply no shortage of original guns in shooting condition and thus little or no market for reproductions.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 06:28:42 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2023, 05:54:11 PM »
I have an interesting collection of French, Belgian and English guns built for the Indian trade as early as 1720. I have always meant to share them here but have never found time to photograph them. Now I doubt I will, I'm already offensive enough!

I don't know Mike, I read you as being candid...

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2023, 06:05:02 PM »
I have an interesting collection of French, Belgian and English guns built for the Indian trade as early as 1720. I have always meant to share them here but have never found time to photograph them. Now I doubt I will, I'm already offensive enough!

Mike,

 I think that the vast majority of the ALR would greatly benefit from seeing some of your collection. Those that are not interested can tune out as is their option.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2023, 07:46:47 PM »
  I actually look for Mike Brooks comments....whether ya like it or not. Mike knows what he talks about. I like the fact he is very direct with his answers.
  I also think if he wrote a book on English fowlers we could all learn a thing or two.... I like the people who are opinionated with knowledge than the one's who are but lack the knowledge.... JMHO
 

Offline Austin

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2023, 01:17:01 AM »
Hawken, American iconic rifle, put one next to an English sporting rifle and the inspiration is obvious. Brooks is the best at skimming the scum off the pond and seeing the bottom, I enjoy his comments.
Eat Beef

Offline ntqlvr1948

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2023, 11:48:44 AM »
 I like to read about any well made gun, and see pics of them . these days when a guy is in his 70's or older he needs to have something to entertain himself. Those that feel a need to complain about these trivial things need to GET A LIFE.....

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2023, 05:00:39 PM »
I have some English guns I thought of showing here, but as some do not like these arms on this forum, I will not do so.

As we know, many original longrifles are pretty awful work, but reflect the time and need!  It is sometimes nice to compare, but this is just my thought.

Jim K,
I only do poor to middling work, but Am English. Yes, living in Canada but not Canadian, and I "do" the odd English gun. Does this count as English made?  :-)

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2023, 05:40:54 PM »
Jim K,
I only do poor to middling work, but Am English. Yes, living in Canada but not Canadian, and I "do" the odd English gun. Does this count as English made?  :-)

Only if you accidently cut yourself during the build and some of the blood gets on the wood. :)

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2023, 06:00:51 PM »
Boy I would sure hate to see discussion of those English guns and other more continental guns censured here. Just recently I have seen no complaints about Smart Dog's thread about his English Fouler project with Maria. This just one example.

Offline Robby

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2023, 06:07:01 PM »
"I have some English guns I thought of showing here, but as some do not like these arms on this forum, I will not do so."
Why should the majority of us be punished because you perceive a few nay sayers?
Post them!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2023, 12:29:09 AM »
I have some English guns I thought of showing here, but as some do not like these arms on this forum, I will not do so.

As we know, many original longrifles are pretty awful work, but reflect the time and need!  It is sometimes nice to compare, but this is just my thought.

Jim K,
I only do poor to middling work, but Am English. Yes, living in Canada but not Canadian, and I "do" the odd English gun. Does this count as English made?  :-)

It does as far as I'm concerned. I like English guns a lot more than American ones, largely because the good ones are nearly always of higher quality. And let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of American rifles have English locks...because it was the mid 19th century before American advances in machine tools made it possible to produce them on a commercial scale.

At least according to my friend DeWitt Bailey, the British actually had more rifles in the Revolution than the Americans did but it made little difference because despite our national hubris the rifle was always a weapon of peripheral value. The war was fought by soldiers armed with muskets and, on the American side, French muskets. This doesn't even take into consideration the contribution made by the French expeditionary force and the fact that most of the American artillery was supplied by the French. It is quite understandable that American collectors have a myopic view of these things but that isn't history...it's pop legend.

Incidentally,  I have it from an author I am working with, who has gone into great depth with primary sources, that the number of muskets imported from France vastly exceeds the popular published figures. I can't say more than that at the moment but when this research is published it will completely revamp the old, often repeated numbers.

As to the "iconic" Hawken rifle being based on English sporting rifles...that may be the case but it is one of the little appreciated characteristics of technological development that a good idea often appears in several places without one being influenced by the other. Perhaps the Hawken brothers saw an English rifle or two, there were plenty of well-to-do Englishmen who made their way to the American frontier to hunt but it's just as realistic to think that a shorter, heavier and more robust rifle with a large bore and flat trajectory occurred to them entirely independent of foreign influence.

Also, do we really want to discourage new people from posting? Sure, they may think their Belgian SxS double is a rifle but how else are we going to bring in new blood?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2023, 12:42:30 AM by JV Puleo »

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2023, 01:04:06 PM »
I have some English guns I thought of showing here, but as some do not like these arms on this forum, I will not do so.

As we know, many original longrifles are pretty awful work, but reflect the time and need!  It is sometimes nice to compare, but this is just my thought.

Jim K,
I only do poor to middling work, but Am English. Yes, living in Canada but not Canadian, and I "do" the odd English gun. Does this count as English made?  :-)
Well said  it is pleasing that someone knows what he is talking about
Feltwad
I have some English guns I thought of showing here, but as some do not like these arms on this forum, I will not do so.

As we know, many original longrifles are pretty awful work, but reflect the time and need!  It is sometimes nice to compare, but this is just my thought.

Jim K,
I only do poor to middling work, but Am English. Yes, living in Canada but not Canadian, and I "do" the odd English gun. Does this count as English made?  :-)

It does as far as I'm concerned. I like English guns a lot more than American ones, largely because the good ones are nearly always of higher quality. And let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of American rifles have English locks...because it was the mid 19th century before American advances in machine tools made it possible to produce them on a commercial scale.

At least according to my friend DeWitt Bailey, the British actually had more rifles in the Revolution than the Americans did but it made little difference because despite our national hubris the rifle was always a weapon of peripheral value. The war was fought by soldiers armed with muskets and, on the American side, French muskets. This doesn't even take into consideration the contribution made by the French expeditionary force and the fact that most of the American artillery was supplied by the French. It is quite understandable that American collectors have a myopic view of these things but that isn't history...it's pop legend.

Incidentally,  I have it from an author I am working with, who has gone into great depth with primary sources, that the number of muskets imported from France vastly exceeds the popular published figures. I can't say more than that at the moment but when this research is published it will completely revamp the old, often repeated numbers.

As to the "iconic" Hawken rifle being based on English sporting rifles...that may be the case but it is one of the little appreciated characteristics of technological development that a good idea often appears in several places without one being influenced by the other. Perhaps the Hawken brothers saw an English rifle or two, there were plenty of well-to-do Englishmen who made their way to the American frontier to hunt but it's just as realistic to think that a shorter, heavier and more robust rifle with a large bore and flat trajectory occurred to them entirely independent of foreign influence.

Also, do we really want to discourage new people from posting? Sure, they may think their Belgian SxS double is a rifle but how else are we going to bring in new blood?

It does as far as I'm concerned. I like English guns a lot more than American ones, largely because the good ones are nearly always of higher quality. And let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of American rifles have English locks...because it was the mid 19th century before American advances in machine tools made it possible to produce them on a commercial scale.

At least according to my friend DeWitt Bailey, the British actually had more rifles in the Revolution than the Americans did but it made little difference because despite our national hubris the rifle was always a weapon of peripheral value. The war was fought by soldiers armed with muskets and, on the American side, French muskets. This doesn't even take into consideration the contribution made by the French expeditionary force and the fact that most of the American artillery was supplied by the French. It is quite understandable that American collectors have a myopic view of these things but that isn't history...it's pop legend.

Incidentally,  I have it from an author I am working with, who has gone into great depth with primary sources, that the number of muskets imported from France vastly exceeds the popular published figures. I can't say more than that at the moment but when this research is published it will completely revamp the old, often repeated numbers.

As to the "iconic" Hawken rifle being based on English sporting rifles...that may be the case but it is one of the little appreciated characteristics of technological development that a good idea often appears in several places without one being influenced by the other. Perhaps the Hawken brothers saw an English rifle or two, there were plenty of well-to-do Englishmen who made their way to the American frontier to hunt but it's just as realistic to think that a shorter, heavier and more robust rifle with a large bore and flat trajectory occurred to them entirely independent of foreign influence.

Also, do we really want to discourage new people from posting? Sure, they may think their Belgian SxS double is a rifle but how else are we going to bring in new blood?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2023, 04:41:57 PM »
DeWitt Bailey! Is he still alive? In the early 1960's i had correspondence with him on American breech loaders in the Civil War.
I also favor the the fine workmanship in English guns and the locks by Brazier and Stanton inspired me to do better when "better"
wasn't wanted and in 1987 I made my first "4 pin" Stanton style lock and R.E.Davis bought it for $250,an  unheard of price then
and to some it still is even now. I see little English inspiration in the Hawken rifles of the half stocked types.The locks were mostly
at best,a utility grade.I completed 1 and 1/4 *of these and sold the completed one to a local man.The other one still has the bridle
in the drill press vise.I hope that these fine English guns and the fine locks can be seen here.The half stocked English flint lock rifles
represent the zenith in spark fired externally generated ignition systems and if Jim Kibler would offer one as a kit with the late Ketland
lock it would be a welcome addition to the kit gun market.
Bob Roller 
* The finished lock had a VERY basic mechanism with only full cock,military style bridle with one screw and a pin at the top and
springs were left with the blue temper colors and the pattern was as seen on the Peteresen J&S Hawken in Woodfill's book.
The other unfinished one was based on a cast plate with the J&S name and "engraving" cast into it.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2023, 04:00:18 PM »
Bob,
DeWitt is still going, but in rather poor health.
His very good friend Bill Curtis passed away maybe a year ago now?
Time flies.
Bill was a terrible loss to us.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2023, 10:27:41 PM »
Bob,
DeWitt is still going, but in rather poor health.
His very good friend Bill Curtis passed away maybe a year ago now?
Time flies.
Bill was a terrible loss to us.

Did Bill Curtis have a forum? I think I had contact with him but about what and when? Maybe something about the lock filers of???
Time used to stagger by on 3 broken legs but NOW it uses a Ferrari.
Bob Roller

Offline alacran

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2023, 03:31:19 PM »
Regarding JV Puleo's previous post. I seriously doubt that the British had more rifles in the WAI than the Americans did, unless you count the mercenary Jaeger Corps and discount American Militia he may be right.
As far as American rifles having mostly English locks, that depends on the time period. Most Pennsylvania rifles before and during the WAI had Germanic and German made locks. The rifle at the time was a Germanic tradition, not an English one.
Thomas Jefferson said that the "Battle of Kings Mountain turned the tide of Success". The Revolutionaries fought mostly with rifles, and the Loyalists fought mostly with muskets. Major Patrick Ferguson, England's most ardent proponent of rifles was killed there. He probably did not have a rifle with him.
England did not have any more advanced machining capabilities before the nineteenth century than the Americans had. What the English had was cheap and capable labor in great quantity.
Anglophile collectors may be just as myopic as American ones.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2023, 05:01:58 PM »
After reading up on the efforts the British made to get rifles to their light infantry troops in DeWitt Bailey's book on British Military Flintlock Rifles, I believe that the English attitude towards rifles as a military weapon was fundamentally altered in the latter half of the 18th century. The really took them seriously after the F&IW, and more so after the AWI. I think, though, that they probably didn't actually have more rifles in every battle than the Americans did. They probably did have more rifles on official establishment (10 per British light infantry company, possibly more in the German units) than the Continental line or light infantry units did. I don't know if US units had any at all officially or even unofficially by the end of the war. I understand that by then, the rifle equipped troops were almost always militia or short term state units.

As for the effectiveness of rifles in linear tactical battles, I don't think anyone who has even tangentially studied the AWI can argue that American rifleman alone won the war.  However, I don't think it's good to go the other direction and say they were inconsequential either. A look at King's Mountain and Cowpens will point out that when rifle equipped, bayonet lacking, militia were used in situations that played to their strength, i.e. in the skirmishing role, they were devastatingly effective. I believe that this is a lesson the British learned, and 20 or so years later, when the young officers who had lived through those fights came into positions of influence, British rifle armed light infantry units were put on the permanent establishment.

Mike

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Yet another locked thread?
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2023, 05:11:31 PM »
Well, that wasn't my figure...it was DeWitt's. I assumed it included the Germans but that seems a moot point. They were serving on the British side and were just as much part of the British forces as the Rochambeau's expeditionary force was part of the American army.

We tend to refer to those Germans as mercenaries but they weren't quite that in the modern sense. Loaning out or renting military units from another country was a widely accepted practice in the 18th century. The men on the ground were simply in the service of whatever principality they belonged to and were going where they were ordered. Oddly enough, Germans were the second choice. Before they were hired the British ambassador to St. Petersburg, Charles Hanbury-Williams, tried to hire 25,000 Russians. The Empress, Cathrine II, turned him down.

As far as locks are concerned, yes, it's likely most of the Revolutionary rifles used continental locks. We say "Germanic" but that's just a catch-all phrase that really doesn't say much. They had to have come from one of the gunmaking centers, of which there were few. Perhaps Shul but more likely the Austrian Netherlands Ė what we now call Belgium but, again, this really needs to be studied in much more detail than just make assumptions from looking at the tiny number of certifiable surviving examples. There is a fairly recent doctoral dissertation on arms export from the Austrian Netherlands that I have but have not read yet. I'm hoping it will shed some light on the subject

I do think most will agree that the vast majority of surviving long rifles are post-revolutionary and most of those have English locks.

As far as manufacturing capacity, Britain certainly had more machines before 1830 but the real genius of their system was a combination of high skills and a very advanced notion of the division of labor...spelled out in great detail by Adam Smith in "The Wealth of Nations", published in 1776. The biggest advances in machine tool design eventually came from America simply because, not having the huge number of skilled workmen, the only way forward was to design machines that would do the job. This was a major advance but it doesn't speak to the fact that, in the late 18th and early 19th century Americans simply couldn't compete in the manufacture of metal parts. The American way of doing things did eventually supplant the old way. In fact, to this day the mass production of parts is referred to in Europe as the "American System."