Wrought Iron Barrel

[Ats5331]

Hey all,

After reading the article on wrought iron barrels in MuzzleBlasts a few months back, I have become interested in using one on a future build.

Since wrought iron is becoming rarer, has anyone ever collected old pieces to take to a blacksmith and get shaped into a barrel blank? A lot of barn and house sales going on here recently and I see a lot of old iron things that got me wondering...

Anybody have experience with these types of barrels?

Thanks!

[rich pierce]

I’ve reconditioned about 25 wrought iron barrels, freshing the rifling. If you went this route you could be all in at $300, including buying the barrel and getting existing rifling re-cut, or getting it bored as re-rifled. I think that a newly forged and bored and rifled barrel would cost 2-3 times that.

[T.C.Albert]

I have an old one I suspect is hand forged wrought iron and have wondered about getting it re rifled too someday. Good to know it can be done.
Tim A

[Hungry Horse]

 If I were going to forge, or have forged, a wrought iron barrel, I would start with finding and procuring an old freight wagon tire. Because just any old wheel-right didn’t have the equipment to repair, and or build, freight wagon wheels. So they often were of superior quality. This extends out to the tire which is often superior wrought iron that is worked longer at the bloomery to eliminate more of the slag.
 These tires/rims are about an inch thick, and around four inches wide. This means you don’t have to do a lot of reforging to make a billit thick enough, and wide enough, to forge a barrel.

Hungry Horse

[Angus]

Agree for the work wagon wheel width. The quality of iron varies greatly. Some skelps will crack rather quickly when starting to roll in the swage block, throw them out the back door of the smithy! Tim Crowe, Ken Guy and I have forged a few under the tutelage of Steve Bookout and have had mixed results with iron.

[bob in the woods]

If you want to pay someone to forge , bore and rifle a barrel for you, I would think the cost would be in the neighbourhood of $ 5000 to $ 8000
It's a ton of work, and pretty much a two man job. If I wanted to go that route, I'd give either Eric Kettenburg, or Brad Emig a call, as a start.  I know that Lloyd Johnston , here in Ontario has forged some , and would be a good contact up here.

[smylee grouch]

I have a few of those wheels back in the trees at my cabin. Unsure what I will do with them yet. Jim Goodieon (sp) bored and recut an old Remington barrel for me several years ago but I suspect that was a steel barrel.

[Ats5331]

So I inherited two old wagon wheels that have iron around their edges. Pretty decent size. I don’t have any plans for them whatsoever.

Is this enough to get started? Could be a great way to preserve the iron that has been in my family for many years

[Ats5331]

I guess another question is does any barrel maker make and sell them routinely?

And yes I saw someone on here just had one for sale. That will teach me for painting the house all day

[tim crowe]

Agree for the work wagon wheel width. The quality of iron varies greatly. Some skelps will crack rather quickly when starting to roll in the swage block, throw them out the back door of the smithy! Tim Crowe, Ken Guy and I have forged a few under the tutelage of Steve Bookout and have had mixed results with iron.

I agree with Angus, there is a fair amount of work to just weld a barrel up, usually 3-4 hours start to finish just to weld the tube with 3 men ,
boring out the barrel Toad hall method a day,
profile the barrel draw filing 6-8 hours,
rifling the barrel 2 hrs average.
 30 hrs x $75.00 hr = $2250 per barrel , makes any modern custom barrel maker a good deal.

[Stoner creek]

 I own guns with wrought iron barrels as well as barrels made from bar stock. There’s no advantage to how they shoot. Outside of being able to say that my barrel is wrought iron . I can see no advantage to stocking a gun around it other than saying that this is a wrought iron barrel. EK, go ahead and shoot me down! No hard feelings!!!

[Carl Young]

Wrought iron contains other impurities like slag (silica) and unknown others depending on the manufacturing process and source of iron or iron ore.
I would rather have modern steel as I don't care for unknown impurities and inclusions in my barrels.

Regards,
Carl

PS: I have smelted iron ore, puddle refined it over many heats, forged it into a skelp, and forge welded a barrel blank. It would take Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates to get me to do it again 

[Angus]

And I'm okay with that 3-4 hours of Tim swinging the hammer and welding the seam shut. 
Can you say "Cornpatch Clinker" larger than Moonpies?

Also helps to make sure the barrel was welded with a mandrel and kept straight. If the bore gets mashed too tight while using a fuller on the flats, a whole new problem can occur trying to get the bore opened up. And yes, the silica and other unknown worldly deposits can wreck the cutting edges on drills and reamers.

[tim crowe]

ITS work for sure to weld a barrel! When you see a skilled man weld one up and make it look easy, that's experience learned from mistakes.  You welded that last barrel of yours up just fine. JB and I need to finish rebuilding the forge so we can we finish the outside flats on a couple of barrels, then on to the boring. I haven't finished setting up the gundrill yet, Regular work got in the way. Cheers

[Goo]

At The risk of sounding " Negative" here and getting my post deleted. 
I want to ask the less than obvious question perhaps changing the direction of the conversation. 
You are planning to trust your safety and perhaps your life to a barrel made from wrought iron. 
Anyone who understands metal knows wrought iron to be inconsistent,  The finished barrel has a seam that is joined under primitive conditions of a coal fire and slag.    There is a high risk of failure at some point due to rust intrusion in places that at the time it was created were ok.   
By comparison Today we have products like CDS tubing which is forged by piercing a solid mild steel rod created in sterile to controlled atmospheric conditions and DOM which is created by similar process under controlled atmospheric conditions and perfect welds tested by modern scientific equipment. but everyone chokes about using it.

Reconditioning an old barrel by removing material doesn`t make any sense its an emotional thing not a rational decision. 

[Mike Brooks]

No different than shooting Damascus
 Been doing it for 40 plus years.  No big deal. I hope no one is offended.

[tim crowe]

Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.

[GrizG]

At The risk of sounding " Negative" here and getting my post deleted. 
I want to ask the less than obvious question perhaps changing the direction of the conversation. 
You are planning to trust your safety and perhaps your life to a barrel made from wrought iron. 
Anyone who understands metal knows wrought iron to be inconsistent,  The finished barrel has a seam that is joined under primitive conditions of a coal fire and slag.    There is a high risk of failure at some point due to rust intrusion in places that at the time it was created were ok.   
By comparison Today we have products like CDS tubing which is forged by piercing a solid mild steel rod created in sterile to controlled atmospheric conditions and DOM which is created by similar process under controlled atmospheric conditions and perfect welds tested by modern scientific equipment. but everyone chokes about using it.

Reconditioning an old barrel by removing material doesn`t make any sense its an emotional thing not a rational decision.

From my discussions with gunsmiths and blacksmiths while working at Williamsburg... and welding barrels with Jon Laubach while there: When properly forge welded there is no discernable seam, the edges become one. The forge weld occurs where the iron is in a plastic state and the hammering forces the plastic edges together... The use of coke during the welding, along with a liberal application of flux, does a good job of keeping things clean at the join and in the defects. Such a weld is more properly thought of as a pressure weld than a fusion weld. Splitting hairs, it is not really a fusion weld as if the iron in the weld were truly in a liquid state it would fall into the forge and/or splatter all over the place when hammered rather than become part of the weld. Witness that what does splatter during the forge welding is not part of the weld.       

I recall wet coal sitting at the sides of the fire while the impurities were slowly cooked away. The coke formed in that process was then incorporated into the fire for the welding. I also recall cracks in the iron being fluxed with borax and welded at various points in the process and flux applied during the edge welding. There were constant inspections during the making of a barrel from the selection of a bar of iron through the proof firing... Granted CW has probably adhered to best practices since Wallace first did his thing there but the guild systems and government contractors surely had their protocols also.

While the process may seen crude to modern man there was a lot of science and care in their methods... All that said, that original care doesn't guarantee that a 200-300 year old barrel is any good for shooting today... 

[tim crowe]

For those looking to dive in deeper in to old research of wrought iron barrel making, French Vs English barrel making,
 the Book Quest for the Indian Trade Gun by Robert M Heath is well worth reading.

[Scota4570]

IF it is about wrought iron vs modern steel, why not have a bar of wrought made in to a barrel using modern methods? 

[Eric Kettenburg]

There are a few of the barrelmakers that will do just that if you supply the round iron rod.  I've still got a few stashed for that very purpose.  Most that I've used, or seen, have been either Ed Rayl or Bob Hoyt.  Getz barrel has also done it when they were still functional and I'm sure one or two others could easily do it as well.

[ScottNE]

There are a few of the barrelmakers that will do just that if you supply the round iron rod.  I've still got a few stashed for that very purpose.  Most that I've used, or seen, have been either Ed Rayl or Bob Hoyt.  Getz barrel has also done it when they were still functional and I'm sure one or two others could easily do it as well.

Where the rods difficult to source? I must be looking in the wrong places because I haven't come across either suitable rods or old barrels suitable for rejuvenating. Granted, I do most of my searching via the comfort of my computer desk.

[Notchy Bob]

IF it is about wrought iron vs modern steel, why not have a bar of wrought made in to a barrel using modern methods?

I think Mark Sage did exactly that.  I believe he had Ed Rayl make the barrel.  Mr. Sage wrote this up in a two-part serialized article in Muzzleloader magazine, maybe two years ago (?).  I can look it up, if anybody needs to know.  Mr. Sage had a rifle built around this barrel and used it to shoot a bear.  As mentioned previously, there was another article or two about wrought iron barrels in Muzzle Blasts around the same time, but by a different author.

I don't remember where Mr. Sage obtained his wrought iron bar.  There was some initial concern about possible inclusions in the metal, but the project turned out well.

I've enjoyed reading the responses on this thread written by those who have actually made forged barrels.  Blacksmiths in the dim past were admired, sometimes feared, and occasionally considered outcasts because of their perceived wizardry.  I did a couple of blacksmithing classes and hammered out a couple of wrought iron nails, and I think I might have made a screwdriver.  That was about the limit of my skills.  A wizard with the hammer I am not.

One final thought concerns the comments about using wagon tires.  Old wagon wheels have some value, too.  I would be reluctant to go knocking them apart unless the wood was completely shot.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

[Eric Kettenburg]

I had bought a bunch from Brad Emig, who was selling iron years ago after I believe he had bought a portion of an old bridge that was being torn down.  I bought round rod and also flat bar from him but I used up all of the bar.   Also there was a company out near P'burgh somewhere that was selling dimensional bridge iron for a time and I bought some from them although that was @20 yrs ago and I no longer remember who they were.  Also the 'Real Wrought Iron' company made a go of it with newly smelted iron but they collapsed relatively quickly.

Brad was selling it at Dixon's and he was right next to me.  Don't know if he still sells it but all I can say is that Shane was a teenager if that gives you some time perspective!

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

One way to do it.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31614.msg303333#msg303333

And, here is another.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19391.msg183213#msg183213

Jim