Bayonet question!

[Rt5403]

So I've been staring at my chambers New England Fowler and toying with idea of adding a bayonet. I know I would have to cut the stock back a little and add a lug but I have a few questions. Does anyone have any good pictures of this and how to do it? Also does anyone know where I can get a socket bayonet that fits the .12 ga chambers New England Fowler?

[Rufus]

Have you thought about a plug bayonet? 

[Rt5403]

Never been a fan of the plug bayonet.

[Beepermac]

I used the brown Bess plan from Track to locate the position of the Bayonet lug and made the nose of the cut stock look similar.  The repro bayonet that I ordered for my Brown Bess kit fit slightly loose but serviceable on the 12 ga. barrel of my Chambers fowler. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/822/1/PLAN-BESS-1730
The bayonet was imported something like this:
https://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1522-brown-bess-bayonet.aspx
If it is little loose on the chambers 12 gauge barrel I suppose you could do something on the interior diameter of the bayonet collar to snug it up.

[Kevin Houlihan]

 I just made a bayonet lug/sight and installed it on an 1863 Springfield.  I would search out the Civil War equipment pages and find out what I.D. the bayonets come in.  You may get lucky and find one that is close to the 12ga. barrel O.D.  If the sockets are too small, you could file, sand or turn your barrel to size.  If the sockets are too big you may have to solder a sleeve into the socket.  I wouldn't solder a sleeve to the outside of the barrel because you will still have to solder the lug on which would loosen the sleeve. I could post a couple pics of the process if you want.
Good luck,
Kevin

[Rt5403]

I just made a bayonet lug/sight and installed it on an 1863 Springfield.  I would search out the Civil War equipment pages and find out what I.D. the bayonets come in.  You may get lucky and find one that is close to the 12ga. barrel O.D.  If the sockets are too small, you could file, sand or turn your barrel to size.  If the sockets are too big you may have to solder a sleeve into the socket.  I wouldn't solder a sleeve to the outside of the barrel because you will still have to solder the lug on which would loosen the sleeve. I could post a couple pics of the process if you want.
Good luck,
Kevin

I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[Kevin Houlihan]

I can’t post the pics to your discussion topic because the rifle doesn’t fit our time period.  I will PM you pictures later.
Kevin

[WKevinD]

I just finished fitting a too big Bess bayonet to a 12 gauge barrel. I silver soldered a piece of thin (.032) brass to the inside and thinned it more with a round file. Plenty of on and off test fits but it worked.

Kevin

[smart dog]

Hi,
 I assume you are doing this to meet some historical objective turning your fowler into a musket as was done quite a bit in New England early in the Rev War.  A British carbine or French musket bayonet might be the best choice. You may have to buy a blank from the Rifle Shoppe for the best options.  You should cut back the stock  the length of the socket (often 4") plus another 3/8-1/2".  The extra length allows 1/8-1/4" inch of barrel to protrude through the end of the socket.  That helps create a snug fit.









Hopefully, you don't have to move barrel lugs or pipes.

You probably will have to move the front sight back and get rid of any barrel flare at the muzzle.  You can substitute the bayonet lug as your front sight if you choose such that the bayonet blade is on the side as on British muskets.  Alternatively, you can have the blade underneath so the lug is on the side and the front sight separate.  Bayonets were hand fitted to the individual guns, which is why they usually had production marks that matched the gun to which they were fitted. I fit a lot of bayonets on reenactors' guns and I fit them as they were meant to be installed.  They are snug, don't rattle, and should stay on the musket when you pull it out of the body of your enemy.  To remove my fitted bayonets, you have to smack the bend in the blade with your palm to release it from the barrel.  I fit the socket on the barrel and if it is a little loose, I heat the end of the socket red hot and peen it over with a ball peen hammer. I the then file the opening until it snugly fits the barrel.  In addition, I taper the end of the "Z" slot such that the barrel lug tightens into the slot when it is fully installed. When you install the barrel lug for the bayonet, I urge you to make it with a slight dovetailed base and fit it to the barrel in a very shallow dovetailed slot.  Then solder it in place with low temp silver bearing solder.  Most of the originals were brazed.

dave   

[Bob Roller]

When setting at a camp fire after a long day of shooting a sausage link can be spiked and cooked without getting too close to the fire.

Bob Roller

[Beepermac]

Dave,
Thank for the bayonet fitting tips.

Steve

[Rt5403]

Hi,
 I assume you are doing this to meet some historical objective turning your fowler into a musket as was done quite a bit in New England early in the Rev War.  A British carbine or French musket bayonet might be the best choice. You may have to buy a blank from the Rifle Shoppe for the best options.  You should cut back the stock  the length of the socket (often 4") plus another 3/8-1/2".  The extra length allows 1/8-1/4" inch of barrel to protrude through the end of the socket.  That helps create a snug fit.









Hopefully, you don't have to move barrel lugs or pipes.

You probably will have to move the front sight back and get rid of any barrel flare at the muzzle.  You can substitute the bayonet lug as your front sight if you choose such that the bayonet blade is on the side as on British muskets.  Alternatively, you can have the blade underneath so the lug is on the side and the front sight separate.  Bayonets were hand fitted to the individual guns, which is why they usually had production marks that matched the gun to which they were fitted. I fit a lot of bayonets on reenactors' guns and I fit them as they were meant to be installed.  They are snug, don't rattle, and should stay on the musket when you pull it out of the body of your enemy.  To remove my fitted bayonets, you have to smack the bend in the blade with your palm to release it from the barrel.  I fit the socket on the barrel and if it is a little loose, I heat the end of the socket red hot and peen it over with a ball peen hammer. I the then file the opening until it snugly fits the barrel.  In addition, I taper the end of the "Z" slot such that the barrel lug tightens into the slot when it is fully installed. When you install the barrel lug for the bayonet, I urge you to make it with a slight dovetailed base and fit it to the barrel in a very shallow dovetailed slot.  Then solder it in place with low temp silver bearing solder.  Most of the originals were brazed.

dave   

Where there any examples of them with the lug underneath which would make the blade on the opposite side?

[smart dog]

Hi Rt,
Absolutely!  Most of the French muskets were that way.  I simply forgot about  that detail when I wrote about the other options.

dave

[Rt5403]

Hi Rt,
Absolutely!  Most of the French muskets were that way.  I simply forgot about  that detail when I wrote about the other options.

dave

Thank you all for the info!

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

When making the bayonet/muzzle setup for a gun there is one quite important feature that often gets overlooked. The base end of the bayonet socket should be in contact with the nosecap end of the stock when the bayonet is mounted.  At the same time there should be a slight gap between the end of the bayonet socket slot and the bayonet lug on the barrel.  When in actual use (graphic - I know) the force of the thrust should transfer through the bayonet socket directly to the musket stock nosecap.  Otherwise all of the force of the thrust is transferred through that tiny bayonet lug, not a good idea.  Many times over the years i have replaced the broken off bayonet lug for reenactors as incorrectly attached lugs get sheared off just from the force of mounting the bayonet.  I am sure that you can see in the photos above that all of the force of a thrust would be carried by the lug as there is quite a large gap between the bayonet socket base and the musket nosecap, not good.

Jim

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
Sorry, but you do not want the bayonet resting against the muzzle cap or end of the stock. The lug also does not need any clearance in the socket slot if it is mounted properly in a shallow dovetail.  The problems you encountered involve reproductions (Pedersoli, Miroku, etc) that are not done properly.  The properly fitted socket tightens against the barrel not the stock or the lug.
 

dave

[Clark Badgett]

Hi,
 I assume you are doing this to meet some historical objective turning your fowler into a musket as was done quite a bit in New England early in the Rev War.  A British carbine or French musket bayonet might be the best choice. You may have to buy a blank from the Rifle Shoppe for the best options.  You should cut back the stock  the length of the socket (often 4") plus another 3/8-1/2".  The extra length allows 1/8-1/4" inch of barrel to protrude through the end of the socket.  That helps create a snug fit.









Hopefully, you don't have to move barrel lugs or pipes.

You probably will have to move the front sight back and get rid of any barrel flare at the muzzle.  You can substitute the bayonet lug as your front sight if you choose such that the bayonet blade is on the side as on British muskets.  Alternatively, you can have the blade underneath so the lug is on the side and the front sight separate.  Bayonets were hand fitted to the individual guns, which is why they usually had production marks that matched the gun to which they were fitted. I fit a lot of bayonets on reenactors' guns and I fit them as they were meant to be installed.  They are snug, don't rattle, and should stay on the musket when you pull it out of the body of your enemy.  To remove my fitted bayonets, you have to smack the bend in the blade with your palm to release it from the barrel.  I fit the socket on the barrel and if it is a little loose, I heat the end of the socket red hot and peen it over with a ball peen hammer. I the then file the opening until it snugly fits the barrel.  In addition, I taper the end of the "Z" slot such that the barrel lug tightens into the slot when it is fully installed. When you install the barrel lug for the bayonet, I urge you to make it with a slight dovetailed base and fit it to the barrel in a very shallow dovetailed slot.  Then solder it in place with low temp silver bearing solder.  Most of the originals were brazed.

dave   

Where there any examples of them with the lug underneath which would make the blade on the opposite side?

Depending on year, lugs for the bayonet on French and even early US made muskets can be found on either top or bottom of the barrel. Some French arms even had the lug on the side. In proper times the bayonet was cut to reside on the right side of the musket, but in times of need you took what you could get.