Author Topic: Pneumatic Gravers  (Read 2810 times)

Online Bob Gerard

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Pneumatic Gravers
« on: July 21, 2023, 02:50:46 PM »
I recently learned that there is/are things called pneumatic gravers! The one I saw is called Graver Max ( by Vevor) and the craftsman using one did some nice looking engraving on brass for his rifle.
I would be interested in this machine and would really like any info yon how these are used and so forth. (In thinking about its use I am imagining some simple decorative engraving work on butt caps and side plates, etc.)
I know it’s no replacement for hand engraving, which is something I really can’t envision trying to learn at this point, in as much as I would love to.
Thanks very much!
Bob

Offline Grischi

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2023, 04:22:00 PM »
Pneumatic gravers are great for any kind of engraving.
If you want to see what's possible visit https://www.airgraver.com/ I consider them to play in major League.

Christian

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2023, 04:26:29 PM »
FWIW the Vevor is a knock off of the GRS Graver Max. My guess is made in China.  Buyer beware.
Kevin

Offline smart dog

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2023, 04:47:20 PM »
Hi Bob,
Pneumatic assisted gravers are fabulous tools.  The best in my opinion is the Lindsay Airgraver along with his sharpening templates.  GraverMeister and GraverMax units are also very good and I've tried them briefly but I still much prefer the Lindsay tool.  The ultimate is the Lindsay Airgraver with palm control.  I still use chisel and hammer for most main lines and outlines, although this is changing over time.  My aging eyes no longer can see the tip of a chisel very well without huddling over the work, even with visor magnification.  That makes it awkward to tap the chisel with my hammer. Currently, I usually do the main outlines with the hammer and chisel and then all the details with the Airgraver, which allows me to huddle over the work and see everything clearly. Inevitably, someone will pipe up that they did all that great engraving during the 17th and 18th centuries without air tools, much magnification, and electric lights so why can't we.  Well, back then most engravers my age were already dead and the trade was for younger eyes.

dave
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Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2023, 05:03:47 PM »
I really, really appreciate the replies and suggestions! I think that for my purposes, such a tool will benefit me and so it’s time to start budgeting for this.
You guys rock 🙂

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2023, 05:25:10 PM »
   Dave don't underestimate the Foredom tools either..Probably not as good as others but extremely versatile.  JM2C

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2023, 05:37:26 PM »
DO NOT buy the Chinese knock-offs.  They have been nothing but trouble and there is no support for them.  Choose a tool from either GRS or Lindsay.  Also, there is a buy and sell section on the Engraver's Cafe and you can usually pick up good used ones.

EngraversCafe.com
Dave Kanger

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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2023, 06:55:22 PM »
I think that the Lindsay Airgraver along with his sharpening templates are the best on the market. You get all the support you need either from Steve or his engraving community. Save your nickels and dimes and get the best option you can afford and if it does not work out you can always sell it. ;)
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Online JTR

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2023, 07:19:55 PM »
Here's pictures of each, and each has it's own benefits, and drawbacks.

The top picture is the Lindsay Palm Control. This is his fancy version, but the basic version operates just the same, and just as well. With practice, you can do very fine and precise engraving. To use, you hold the tool in hand, and press against the handle with your palm. Press a little, and it goes slow. Press harder and it goes faster, basically mimicking faster and slower hammer blows. It does take practice to get the hang of it. In operation, the tool is very very quiet. One possible drawback is that it requires a compressed air supply and regulator. I buy a bottle of compressed air from the local welding supply house. For my limited use, a bottle lasts about 2 years.
The Lindsay tool is a piece of art in itself!

The lower pic is the GRS Gravermeister. It's an older machine, and I'm not sure they still make them, but they can be found on the used market. You use this one by holding the tool, and pressing on a foot peddle to make it go. The peddle is a variable speed control, so pressing the peddle gently it'll run slow, and pressing the peddle harder it runs faster. The GRS does make a lot more running noise, but doesn't require a separate air supply.

With either machine, I'd use the Lindsay sharpening templates.




John Robbins

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2023, 07:38:48 PM »
I went with the Gravemaster.  I made a ball type device with a lazy susan bearing, a chunk of lead and vice.  By spinning the table and not so much the engraver I can cut scrolls and lines that suggest skills I do not actually posses.  My hands and eyes are no longer up to the task of learning to be a competent engraver using purely historically correct tools and techniques.  So I kind of cheated. 

Lindsay also sells a sharpening system.  IT consists of diamond plates and angle guides.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2023, 08:07:36 PM »
I had no idea I was so out of fashion.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dwshotwell

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2023, 08:51:10 PM »
I'm starting from ground zero here - I just bought a few manual gravers and the Lindsay sharpening template. I cut my first crude "lines" last weekend. My understanding from the reading I've done was that the pneumatic gravers weren't necessarily easier to use/learn, and that you should learn the techniques first manually. The responses to Bob's inquiry seem to indicate that he'd be fine learning on the pneumatic and that in some respects it may be easier. I have no experience with either... is the stuff I was seeing before likely based on not creating a big sunk cost buying all the equipment up front, or just an opinion from the couple of things I happened to read?
David Shotwell

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2023, 09:37:05 PM »
I looked at a few of the suggested names and it is quite a chunk of money. It’s a good question as to process; is it better to develop basic graving skills before delving into an expensive system that still requires hand- engraving skills to use?
Don’t want to put the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Offline Dwshotwell

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2023, 09:51:37 PM »
Bob - the investment in the tool steel gravers and sharpening system are fairly modest, particularly if you have stones already. I also invested $125 in the Schipper's Engraving Historic Firearms book, and the info for getting started in that book is well worth what seems like a high price for a how - to book. Lots of good stuff on how to get started if you haven't seen it yet.
David Shotwell

Offline smart dog

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2023, 10:07:42 PM »
Hi Bob,
David is right.  The key is to learn to sharpen properly.  You cannot engrave anything without sharp gravers so a good start is to invest in Lindsay's sharpening template system and use gravers mounted in chisel handles.  Lindsay sells all of that.  He has a longrifle engraving set for sale that was put together by Tom Curran for his engraving classes.  Take a look at that.

dave
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2023, 10:19:34 PM »
FWIW the Vevor is a knock off of the GRS Graver Max. My guess is made in China.  Buyer beware.
Kevin
Made in CHINA?What a surprise ;D ;D!
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2023, 11:32:10 PM »
I had no idea I was so out of fashion.
I've never been IN fashion and too old to care now.
Fossilization,the next event.
Bob Roller

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2023, 11:53:09 PM »
 If you can build a gun, you sure as the devil can build a pneumatic graver. There is nothing to them really. There are plenty of YouTuber’s with instructions. Most of you have the components laying around your shop.

Hungry Horse

Offline kutter

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2023, 12:53:57 AM »
The GraverMeister was THE machine for air assisted engraving and out about the time I got started, 1971.
I was still taught Hammer & Chisel and Palm Graver and used the tools that way till I was forced to either give up the trade or change cutting method.

That was around 15yrs ago, So I went with the Lindsay Palm Graver.
I was still engraving full time and needed something to keep me going.
It's a beautiful system and I never regretted buying it.
I'm still engraving and gunsmithing though I'm retired from the hassle of that full time business.
The Lindsay still works just fine. Every once in a while I pick up the old Hammer & Chisel tools and a very quick reminder is sent to my small brain that No, you can't hold them steady anymore to do this.

Going back to beginning when I started, the Engraving shop at Pedersen Custom Gun had 5 of the Gravermeister machines with big ideas to train some people to engrave with them and turn out work almost immediately.
That failed to flourish and I was taught by a couple of seasoned engravers the old ways and stuck with that.

Nearly all of the new engravers of the 70's and 80's were going with a GraverMeister. Their work was beautiful and coming along quickly. It was hard to dismiss how the tool(s) made the learning curve easier.

In the mid 80's I thought I may as well give in and get one too.
At that time the latest from GRS was the GraverMax.
A less expensive edition of the GraverMeister but still the same setup with palm chisel, air assist , foot control, etc.

I tried to use it but never got used to it and went back to the Hammer &Chisel. That until they who control aging & stupid things you do to break your body intervened and as I stated above, I was forced to choose an Air tool or quit the trade.

I went with the Lindsay because there is no Foot pedal control of the speed. It's all in the Palm graver you are holding on to.

The GraverMeister/Max use a Foot pedal control for the speed.
I had no choice in the condition I'm in. So the Lindsay was purchased.

With the GraverMax you will need your own air source (compressor).
The GraverMeister has the compressor built as part of the machine itself.
The Lindsay also uses a separate compressed air source.

For the compressed air source, some use(ed) a compressed air filled tank to run off of so no noise of an on/off compressor was a distraction.
The Lindsay will even run off of  small CO2 cartridges IIRC using a special hook up.

I used a small compressor that was stored in a separate garage for the time I used the GraverMax. No noise as it was in another building.
The Lindsay I use a Silencio (?) brand small compressor that Steve recommends. Extremely quiet and it sits on a bench right behind me.

I recall the GraverMeister machines running but not being excessively load.  Maybe at 21yr old that sort of thing didn't bother me. Plus they didn't get used very much in that shop. Every one was taught the old ways and the machines sat idle most of the time.

The one tool you should have is something to accurately sharpen the gravers.
Wether it be a simple Crocker type graver sharpener (which are kind of a pain to use but they do work )
to a power hone with different grit discs and an adj fixture to lock the graver into to keep the angles correct.
The most frustrating thing to use is an improperly sharpened graver.
Steve Lindsay's sharpening 'system' is a very good one.

I was taught to sharpen Free Hand. Graver in RH, oil stone in LH. No fixture, no support, no guides. Just swipe the graver back and forth on the stone to get the flat face at the proper angle. Then drag is backwards again at the proper angle to get the heel.
Simple when you watch someone that's done it all his engraving life. Not so simple to learn from the start.

I used the Crocker graver sharpening fixture for years along with a good dose of free hand sharpening.
When I was forced to start using Carbide tool bits to cut Winchester Mod 21's, I had to go and get a Power Hone with it's grit discs that can cut and sharpen the Carbide tool bits.
I still use the Power Hone for sharpening. But I don't care for Carbide tools for engraving. So I choose not to cut things that were never meant to be cut.



****
*** I still have that GraverMax machine.
It sets right next to my bench where I placed it and used it 40 yrs ago. Probably only has 30 to 40 hrs on it.

If you are interested in it let me know and we can more than likely make a deal.

Offline elkhorne

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2023, 02:45:12 AM »
All concerned future engravers, Listen to JTR and Kutter,
I still consider myself a newbie engraver. I have always wanted to learn engraving but a military career and life in general took precedence until around 2010, I found the GRS classes in Emporia, KS. I took a class using their fine equipment and an instructor that was a high end modern knife engraver. We used Gravermax, power homes, and scopes for our instruction. I learned some but nothing appropriate to colonial engraving. I bought a Gravermax but never got the knack after I spent a lot on a nice setup. Then I tried to take a hammer/chisel (HC) class from Tom Curran and unfortunately he had to cancel at the last minute due to his health. As far as I’m concerned, he was one of the last and best HC instructor and his demise was a great loss to our whole muzzleloading and engraving community. Next I took John Schipper’s class at Connery Prairie and learned more than any class to that point. John’s book is the best ever written on learning engraving but the bottom line was learning to sharpen by hand. One of the hardest thing I have ever tried to learn! Then I took an HC engraving class at the NMLRA’s Gunmakers class in Bowling Green, KY. I had all the right stuff to engrave, even a sharpening jig recommended by the great engraver Lynton McKenzie but still no standard, set and easily repeatable sharpening technique! I was so frustrated after the last class that I put my engraving tools up until recently. At the Bowling Green class time, a very well respected master gunmaker told me to forget to trying to learn HC engraving and go straight to the Lindsay system! He relayed another well known master builder that had been trying to self teach himself HC engraving and still was not accomplished after 5+ years. I have since purchased a Lindsay, the foot controlled version, to try to finally learn some good basic colonial style engraving for my builds. I’m getting ready to set my system up and start practicing soon. Another good instructor to watch his use of the Lindsay system is Bill Raby that is on Rumble and Patreon. On his Lancaster build and others viewable by all, he shows how he learned on the Lindsay and has done some really nice work. From my engraving experiences, there are 2 must points to learn. First is CONSISTENT SHARPENING, as others have already mentioned, and the second is PRACTICE! I remember John Schipper’s told us to try to diligently practice at least 15 minutes a day to learn engraving instead of sitting down and trying to engrave 8 hours a day! For sharpening, I do not think anyone has come up with a better sharpening aid that the Lindsay templates to get consistent sharpening. So the bottom line is sharpen with Lindsay and practice, practice, practice!

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2023, 04:07:28 AM »
 I took a week long H&C engraving class at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading in Hallam PA w/ Brad and Shane Emig.  They are both excellent engravers and teachers.  The class was great and I highly recommend it.  We were taught to sharpen with the Crocker Sharpener to put the 45 face and to sharpen the heels freehand.  I use the Lindsey sharpening system now which is easier and more repeatable for me.  I'm still not great because I don't practice enough, but I have the basics. The investment to get started w/ H&C is pretty low.  If you have a chance to take their class, do it.
Kevin

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2023, 04:15:10 AM »
I had no idea I was so out of fashion.

Same with me and many others

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2023, 06:20:05 AM »
I am overwhelmed with this information. The knowledge of expertise and life-learned skills of you fellas makes me wonder what I am really capable of starting at this stage in my own life. I think that maybe I am about to bite off more than I can chew...
 

Offline Rolf

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2023, 11:19:33 AM »
I've been trying off and for several years to learn hammer and chisel engraving. Never been able to do a line with uniform thickness. The graver goes up and down like a roller coaster. I have the Lindsay sharpening system. No problems with getting the gravers sharp. I think my main problem is coordinating my left and right hands. I'm strongly left-handed, left-legged(dancing school was a nightmare) and left eye dominated. Could not shoot right-handed to save my life.

Been thinking about buying a lindsey airgraver with a foot pedal for a longtime, hoping it would be the solution. But, I'd like to test one first before buying. Have not been able to find one in Norway so far.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline elkhorne

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Re: Pneumatic Gravers
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2023, 07:02:43 PM »
Rolf,
Welcome to the left hand world. Remember we (lefties) are the only ones in our right mind! As far as your experience with hammer and chisel engraving has been mine also for along time. I did progress somewhat when I took John Schipper’s class at Conner Prairie a couple of years ago. The “why” I progressed was because John teaches, what I have heard referred to as the Japanese style, where you hold the graver in your dominate hand facing you and the hammer in your other hand and engrave coming down the line towards you. This is almost completely opposite than the more traditional style where you hold the graver in your other than dominant hand, the hammer in the dominant hand and engrave across you from left to right. I got my best engraving practice examples with John’s technique as it was much easier to see the point of your engraver in relation to your line you are engraving. Hope I’m not confusing you or others but it seemed to work best for me. If you have not purchased John Schipper’s engraving book, I would highly encourage you to do so. As far as I know, the best book on learning to engrave on the market. Also he has a master pattern in it that he says practices most all the engraving cuts you will ever need to do. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
elkhorne