Kibler kits

[oldtravler61]

    Ok first off this is not about the quality of Jim's kits.... Period..!
  It's more about why some people have so much trouble putting them together. With all his videos and such.    I seriously don't understand.
  Jim has bent over backwards to make them as simple as possible. I can see some issues if they ( assembler ) wants to add a patch box, nose cap or maybe staining the stock or Browning the metal parts.  Maybe..?
  But the kits pretty much fall together or am I missing something..?
  Your opinions...?
 

[bob in the woods]

Some folks have a hard time boiling water.  It's the world we live in.   

[JTR]

Well, generally speaking, If you grew up snapping Lego's together, you shouldn't have a problem.
If you're older but can still move your fingers, it's still unbelievably simple. Think TC Hawken, but more precise.
 
I like them and like how Kibler and Co have designed such an accurate replica and good looking rifle. If I was still a black powder shooter, I'd own one of each model!
John

[Spalding]

I have members of my club who are intimidated at the thought of building. They always ask if I think they could put one together, and I’ve offered to help if needed, but so far no takers.
There are always those who are all thumbs and would have trouble with a balsa airplane.

Bob

[Scota4570]

Our perspective is skewed here.  We have a group of people with mechanical and artistic ability that is less than 1% of the population.  Of course a Kibbler kit is easy for us. 

When someone who is not skilled or mechanically minded assembles something that is new to them they often have trouble.  Skills that we take for granted are unknown to them.  They might also struggle with IKEA furniture or assembling a bike for their kid.  There is a good chance they are good at something else.  They are trying so I encourage anyone I can.  These old skills are evaporating from our society. 

I am thankful that someone is making a true kit that requires only assembly.  Before this you had to take a deep dive into learning to be a gunsmith to get a reasonable result.  People do not tend to have the attention span for that today. 

[godutch]

  I'm with Scota4570 on this one. There will always be folks without the tools, confidence, and determination to learn something new. In truth, they probably should not. However, based on what I've been seeing and reading re: JK's kits, it's a major 'leg up' for the first time builder and can only encourage new blood going forward.

[Dwshotwell]

I'm not too hasty / judgmental about this - I've built one of each of the Kibler kits, another kit that was on the opposite end of the quality spectrum from those, and one gun from a blank (with help in a class). Maybe I'm just not as handy as everyone else, but even with my most recent Kibler, which was the new WR and the easiest to build, there were a few things that I felt like could go wrong without care. Fitting the brass cap on the back of the patchbox lid wasn't easy for me, but even the routine task of putting the pins in without something going sideways takes attention and care and a little finese. If you've never done it, it can be intimidating.

I frequent another forum for handtool woodworking, and I posted a few pictures  of my WR there while I was working on it. I made it clear that it was a kit etc., and an easy one at that, but comments from guys who can build an entire armoire from rough stock with hand cut moldings, without using electricity, reacted like I was the second coming of Jacob Dickert. It's all relative.

[Carl Young]

I am lucky enough to have traveled to the Far North and seen Jim & Katherine's business and learned much about their process (which I did not take pictures of to preserve their proprietary information. It is amazing, and very similar in many ways to a company I toured that makes medical implants.

As one of my previous Deans said to a parent worried about their child being able to do college coursework "I don't know, we can fix ignorance, but we can't fix stupid". The days of building soap-box racers, model airplanes, amateur radios, etc. is gone. Few people are even willing to cook food, or cut their own grass...they just order it done.  I make a good living but I still change my own oil (shop cost $150 and then I worry they have FUBARed it).

One crazy teacher's viewpoint 
Carl [Professor of Health Sciences, Professor of Healthcare Law, Professor of Business Strategy.]

[TDM]

It's a mistake to measure others by your own yardstick. Like most here I grew up working on machines, using tools, and building things. My hands are used to it, though I'm far from an expert gun builder by any stretch, I still do it. It's a marvel to me how Jim has engineered such great kits. And I agree that I scratch my head when some have problems with them. But the vast majority of people, even those that enjoy muzzleloaders, have very little or no mechanical aptitude.

[maudite]

The biggest problem with some people is lack of patience.You get in a rush to get the job done and make a mistake which leads to another mistake and the next thing you know your cursing and swearing and the kit is tossed in the corner.
It’s hard not to get excited when you get a kit like this thinking about the end result of having a nice long rifle when your finished but haste makes waste as they say.If one takes their time and if they run into a problem does some research like contacting some of the folks on here there should be no reason why they can t put a nice gun together

[axelp]

Kibler Kits are the "gateway drug" to gunbuilding. And the fact that you can achieve an end product that is actually quite nice makes it all that more addicting. If it brings more folks in and they learn and grow these lost and dying skills and keep the hobby full of excited interested folk, there really is no downside.

[oldtravler61]

  I'm just surprised at the questions. Like where does the lock fit, or do I use both screws for the butt plate..?  I understand the fitting questions if you never have done this kind of work. But you got to admit some of them are interesting...
  I know when I attempted to build my first muzzle loader. I had a barrel, a slab of wood and a lock. Only thing in my favor was Fox Fire five. I wore that book out.... Anyway thinks for your input....

[Old Time Hunter]

While I personally believe , we are all equal in the sight of God , the equal part ends right there!  There has never been a time when all people had the same talents , skills, gifts! What a boring world it would be! Even among skilled builders there are many "levels" . Jim`s kits have made it easier for people to put together a well engineered , nicely designed long rifle , than it ever has been in history! There always has been and always will be people who, struggle with the most basic of tasks , so, people struggling with these kits is NO surprise! My only request on the subject , would be that Kibler put a flyer in the box informing the buyer that they are not BUILDING anything! merely assembling a kit! The uninformed recipient of the kit is surely "fired up" and ready to show the world what he "built" not realizing there is quite a bit of difference in an actual long rifle "build" from assembling a kit! I realize that is unachievable ! Let them call it what they may.  If and when they move along to an actual "build" they will quickly realize the difference. 

[kutter]

I see just an overall lack in people of wanting to create or fix something .
The constant remarks I get when I show a project or how I do something is 'Why don't you just go buy one instead of wasting your time making one ',,and 'It's not worth my time to do something like that'.

My stepson put it well when he told me one time that world runs on a Credit Card, a Cell Phone and a Smile.
Have someone else do it, it's not worth the effort and your time.

I see it differently and am proud of that fact.
The loss of the overall general knowledge and skills to create, fix and maintain even the simplest things around us is sad.

[Stoner creek]

I’ve helped with several kit building classes over the past few years. I’m constantly surprised with the number of adult males who don’t know how to properly use a rechargeable electric drill. Nobody seems to understand clearly worded instructions either.
 No moving parts on a smart phone. Maybe that’s the reason.
W

[Dennis Glazener]

Lack of confidence! Afraid of messing up a really nice product that costs them a fair amount of money. Many never had a father that taught them basic tool skills. My son in law has a PHD, he is extremely brilliant but never had used hand tools, he tries but most of the household hand tool ( Nokia furniture  assemble work)  is done by my daughter!
Dennis

[P.W.Berkuta]

This topic is interesting, funny, and sad all at the same time . Those of us who were born during or after WW2 had to make do with what we could find or make if we wanted to entertain ourselves. There was no "EXTRA" money that our parents could give us so that we could go buy a toy. We would go into our father's shop, garage, barn basement and make something like a soapbox racer out of an orange crate and old roller skate wheels. I remember my cousin and I would go in his basement and there his father had a set of airplane seats and two twin engines from a airplane dissembled. We would turn on the OLD Philco to a place on the dial where it would make a loud buzzing sound and we would place the two seats next to each other behind the two engines and pretend that we were on a bombing mission over Germany - we spent HOURS "bombing" every German city we could think of and others we made up - what fun we had

[oldtravler61]

  This should make you all laugh. My wife has one of those battery powered lawn mowers for sale.  We just had a couple want to buy it...they absolutely didn't understand what the charger was for....
As the astronauts said " Houston we have a problem..". 

[Bob Roller]

This topic is interesting, funny, and sad all at the same time . Those of us who were born during or after WW2 had to make do with what we could find or make if we wanted to entertain ourselves. There was no "EXTRA" money that our parents could give us so that we could go buy a toy. We would go into our father's shop, garage, barn basement and make something like a soapbox racer out of an orange crate and old roller skate wheels. I remember my cousin and I would go in his basement and there his father had a set of airplane seats and two twin engines from a airplane dissembled. We would turn on the OLD Philco to a place on the dial where it would make a loud buzzing sound and we would place the two seats next to each other behind the two engines and pretend that we were on a bombing mission over Germany - we spent HOURS "bombing" every German city we could think of and others we made up - what fun we had

Made do with what we had and an imagination to go with it.My time beginning a age 6 was in a German neighborhood in Chicago and I did have a pair of skates I could use o the smooth streets  and model planes including a Japanese Zero and a Stuka.That idea with the plane seats and the old Philco is priceless.No racers,soapbox or otherwise but the big park and our cap pistols were enough for running "gunfights"
We got news of the war on WBBM and heard Hans Kaltenborn report it.He WAS an American and there were others such as Gabriel Heater and radio comedies that were good for a hoot and a giggle like the Great Gildersleeve and the Great Scnozola,Jimmy Durante.
I remember Franklin Roosevelts "Day of infamy address"but had no idea what he meant and 4 days later heard Adolf Hitler speaking thru a translator decalre war on America.lt's another universe today and anything without a screen and lights is weird.One  more thing,We had a GANGSTER car we played in,a big Pierce Arrow abandoned by the owner.We fired our imaginary "Tommy Guns" out of it.
Bob roller

[Stoner creek]

In spite the disappointment with my fellow man and his lack of knowledge about simple tasks I’m going to keep on teaching, helping, whatever it takes. My hope is that our next, Jud, Jim, Herschel, Mike or Allen is out there just waiting for someone to inject some spark into his soul!
Ya never know!?!
These kits (from wherever) might just be all that is needed. I can say that every student that leaves our kit class is happy and proud of their accomplishments. Very satisfying from an instructors perspective.
 
W

[Taylorz1]

In my work I have to train young highly intelligent people to do moderately difficult technical tasks. When I first started it was easy to get a trainee up to speed in a few years time but all of them had worked in the woodshop with their dads or did crafts with their moms etc. now its common to struggle to get these kids up to snuff and universally they all tell me they have never done crafts, fixed cars, mended clothes etc etc. lots of video games but in my experience that doesnt transfer over. These kids view their hands as mysterious lumps of clay at the ends of their wrists.

[Stoner creek]

In my work I have to train young highly intelligent people to do moderately difficult technical tasks. When I first started it was easy to get a trainee up to speed in a few years time but all of them had worked in the woodshop with their dads or did crafts with their moms etc. now its common to struggle to get these kids up to snuff and universally they all tell me they have never done crafts, fixed cars, mended clothes etc etc. lots of video games but in my experience that doesnt transfer over. These kids view their hands as mysterious lumps of clay at the ends of their wrists.

 Lumps of clay with incredibly fast thumbs. Have you ever seen this bunch with a smart phone?

[smylee grouch]

These kits are so easy to assemble for those with even a small basic understanding of tools and minimal mechanical aptitude but as has already been pointed out there are some who just shouldn't try and have someone else do it for them. These same people should also probably buy their round ball as I think casting for them would be just too hazardous. There are plenty other devout and devoted muzzleloading shooters out there who didn't build their own rifles..

[TDM]

 Lumps of clay with incredibly fast thumbs. Have you ever seen this bunch with a smart phone?

Sad but true.

[mossyhorn]

I had the opportunity to attend Jim's first kit building class at WKU in 2016 and was able to put together (build) my mountain rifle. What an experience that was to work with Jim and Katherine for a week. I wanted to add a patch box to my rifle and Jim gave me a piece of cardboard and said draw how you want it to look. With his assistance I completed a handmade patch box complete with hinges that worked. I will never forget that week and what I learned. Jim and Katherine were so patient working with us and so precise in their instructions. I am indebted to them for further fanning the flames to this great hobby. P.S. I also got to meet Hershel and the House Brothers along with Lally House and many others that we read about  in these pages and see at different events. A truly great experience for an old country boy