Author Topic: plastic containers for BP  (Read 1718 times)

Offline smoke

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plastic containers for BP
« on: July 22, 2023, 03:25:15 AM »
Hi I lost my powder horn so can i use a plastic bottle like those used for mustard and ketchup etc. Thanks

Offline rich pierce

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2023, 04:19:35 AM »
Yes. Many manufacturers use plastic containers. Just donít get confused and put the container next to the BBQ.
Andover, Vermont

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2023, 04:42:21 AM »
Better yet contact Tim Crosby, Cory Joe Stewart or any of our fine horn makers and buy another.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Tumbledown

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2023, 04:52:49 AM »
The static might be an issue...

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2023, 07:42:44 PM »
Static electricity has been scientifically proven to be completely unable to ignite black powder.   
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2023, 08:40:58 PM »
Static electricity has been scientifically proven to be completely unable to ignite black powder.
Nifty.
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Offline EC121

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2023, 10:23:44 PM »
Static wonít do it. Go to www.ctmuzzleloaders.com. and select the ďexperimentsĒ section. They did a test. All the static sparks did was physically blow the powder around the metal plate. The sparks donít last long enough to generate enough heat to ignite the powder.
Brice Stultz

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2023, 12:07:06 AM »
Plastic is fine.

Some guys did a test so science says it canít happen. I spent a week in the Vanderbilt burn center because it did happen. The percentages mean nothing to the guy that lightning strikes.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2023, 09:24:34 PM »
Bob, you are the first to ever mention that static did if fact, ignite black powder.  Please give us as complete a detailed account of the incident as you can, so that we can all learn from your accident.  This is vital information.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2023, 10:27:39 PM »
Bob, you are the first to ever mention that static did if fact, ignite black powder.  Please give us as complete a detailed account of the incident as you can, so that we can all learn from your accident.  This is vital information.

I did contribute the Cliff Notes to a thread a few years ago and it was quite contentious. I posted pics of the aftermath if I recall. It WAS a special circumstance admittedly. I was emptying my collection of 100+ year old tins to ship them to a buyer. A few were fullish, but most just had a fraction of an ounce or so of fine dust in the bottom. All told I poured about 3-5 lbs in a large 12Ēx12Ēx12Ē or so Tupperware and walked from the shop (in moccasins) across my concrete driveway to dispose of it. Halfway across the drive it sparked for a second and then whooshed. It was like a bomb in my hand. My shirt was on fire from my belly button up. It sandblasted my glasses, thank god for them, (I think I turned my face towards the tin at the first second of spark) and burnt my full beard completely off. Third degree burns over 11% of my body. Right arm and hand, side, chest and face. Thankfully my father and Aunt were on the farm. Iím not sure I couldíve driven myself. The powder was old, as fine as it could physically be from bouncing around in the bottom of those tins for decades. There was a small amount of wind so I think there was some of that super fine talcum like dust hovering in the Tupperware, and leather moccasins shuffling across the drivewayÖ. There was some dark clouds but it wasnít raining. I have no idea which of those circumstances may have contributed but it went off nonetheless. And I paid the price for thinking it couldnít happen.

Was it 1/1,000,000? Ten times that? Less? I donít know. I saw the testing done online and it felt fairly definitive but Iíll add my story to the conversation when I feel up to it. ďCanítĒ is a strong word.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 11:05:15 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2023, 10:31:02 PM »
Also, not to leave out any facts, there may have been, though I donít remember, one or two tins of smokeless powder in the bunch. There were a hundred tins or so total. The smokeless would have contributed at max an ounce of smokeless powder dust. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2023, 08:44:16 PM »
Thanks Bob, for that detailed declaration.  You certainly have captured my attention. 
 A couple of years ago, one of our local lumber mills exploded and many people were seriously hurt.  The explosion was caused be fine particles of wood dust floating in the air, and some kind of spark.  But in a mill where electric motors the size of VW's are running 24 hours a day, a spark wouldn't be hard to find.  And I know that flour, when it is powdered to dust and suspends in the air, can be explosive as well, from static electricity.
And yet, the powder companies ship and store their products in plastic containers, including BP and smokeless.  I just bought two pounds of IMR 4198 in plastic bottles.  And almost all of my store of Black Powder, GOEX, Schutzen, and Swiss, is in plastic containers.   I've been loading black powder into the plastic powder containers of my various reloading presses for years, without incident.  But the percentage of 'fines' in the powder is very very small, and thus far, has posed no issues.
When I pour powder from a plastic 'can' into a powder horn, there always appears a small cloud of very fine dust which I blow away from the action...I have sometimes wondered if that cloud of dust is dangerous.
As far as generating a static spark with moccasins on a concrete driveway, that's a new one on me.  Years ago, we had a pair of Siamese cats that loved being dragged back and forth by their feet across a thick wool carpet, until a two inch long blue static spark appeared at the end of their tail.  then, when released, they would richochet around the house for a minute and come straight back, flop down on the carpet, and want to go again.  Crazy cats.
The best I can say now, is that this issue with black powder and static is unresolved....
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2023, 01:20:31 AM »
Static electricity has been scientifically proven to be completely unable to ignite black powder.
Nifty.
There were some extensive tests done on the now gone LRML forum from England and not one ignition could be produced by static electricity. Direct fire as seen in a percussion cap and the red hot shavings from a flint lock frizzen being scraped worked as always.I don't recall any tests using an automotive battery ,coil and spark plug being tried.Maybe the safest way is to assume ALL propellants associated with shooting anything that launches a projectile can be ignited.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 01:30:36 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2023, 03:35:21 AM »
I taught hunter safety for 20 years and at the end of every class I did a demo where I would burn a teaspoon full of H870 smokeless powder and then a teaspoon full of 3f black to show the difference in the burn rate. I used a long wood farmers match for ignition. It was surprising how many times I had trouble getting the 3f to ignite. The last few years I started to use a butane charcoal lighter.  ;)

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: plastic containers for B
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2023, 03:37:35 AM »
Thanks Bob, for that detailed declaration.  You certainly have captured my attention. 
 A couple of years ago, one of our local lumber mills exploded and many people were seriously hurt.  The explosion was caused be fine particles of wood dust floating in the air, and some kind of spark.  But in a mill where electric motors the size of VW's are running 24 hours a day, a spark wouldn't be hard to find.  And I know that flour, when it is powdered to dust and suspends in the air, can be explosive as well, from static electricity.
And yet, the powder companies ship and store their products in plastic containers, including BP and smokeless.  I just bought two pounds of IMR 4198 in plastic bottles.  And almost all of my store of Black Powder, GOEX, Schutzen, and Swiss, is in plastic containers.   I've been loading black powder into the plastic powder containers of my various reloading presses for years, without incident.  But the percentage of 'fines' in the powder is very very small, and thus far, has posed no issues.
When I pour powder from a plastic 'can' into a powder horn, there always appears a small cloud of very fine dust which I blow away from the action...I have sometimes wondered if that cloud of dust is dangerous.
As far as generating a static spark with moccasins on a concrete driveway, that's a new one on me.  Years ago, we had a pair of Siamese cats that loved being dragged back and forth by their feet across a thick wool carpet, until a two inch long blue static spark appeared at the end of their tail.  then, when released, they would richochet around the house for a minute and come straight back, flop down on the carpet, and want to go again.  Crazy cats.
The best I can say now, is that this issue with black powder and static is unresolved....

Thanks T for the kind response. I have no thoughts whatsoever about the moccasins on concrete being a cause nor the sort of electrical natural of the weather that evening but those are the facts as I remember them regarding that day. I have nothing to contribute except for what happened to me under the circumstances as I recall them. No one was smoking near me or any other anomalies not mentioned. I have often thought of the case of the smokeless being in the mix as a factor but have never followed up on that in any meaningful way. Was the plastic of that particular Tupperware of a nature that it held some small charge? It was the old baby blue type. Very very doubtful but some combination it seems caused it.. I have no answers.  I can tell you one thing. Iíve been flipped end over end by artillery going off next to me which busted several ribs, had me coughing up blood for a week and popped an eardrum. I was hit by a car doing 50 mph which busted my femur into more than a few pieces, busted ribs and had me in a body cast for 8 weeks but nothing hurts like an arm from the shoulder to the finger tips completely deskinned. This I can tell you. That said, except for some lack of flexibility in the fingers of my right hand Iíve fully recovered so alls well that ends well. My scars can only be seen when Iíve had some sun on the new skin. Iíll take it.

I have no fear of BP as I have 50 or so lbs of it at any one time but just like the kid reaching up to the stove when momma says itís hot, Iím as careful as I can be.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 03:57:06 AM by Bob McBride »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2023, 07:57:34 PM »
Bob, it appears that you are hard to kill...may you live long and prosper.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline coutios

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2023, 08:40:26 PM »
  If you want to use plastic containers for BP and have concerns just use an anti static plastic container. Look it up... Thx

Offline Selenite

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2023, 12:22:28 PM »
The static might be an issue...

It is impossible to ignite black powder with a static spark. Please check this: https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Offline Selenite

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2023, 12:24:48 PM »
  If you want to use plastic containers for BP and have concerns just use an anti static plastic container. Look it up... Thx

Static is not a problem; you simply cannot ignite black powder with a static spark. End of story.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: plastic containers for BP
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2023, 10:19:36 PM »
Bob, it appears that you are hard to kill...may you live long and prosper.

Nah, just lucky. I feel like a cat on number 9.