Author Topic: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile  (Read 2047 times)

Offline Bison

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Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« on: July 23, 2023, 06:21:26 AM »
I'm going to taper a round straight barrel on my friends lathe. He's never had the opportunity to do such a thing so we're figuring it out as we go. One question we have is how does one keep the barrel from flexing as it is cut? Anyone have experience with this type of project?

Short version is we're planning on offsetting the tail stock to cut the taper.

Offline Bison

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2023, 07:06:45 AM »
Im thinking we can use a steady rest and cut half of the profile and then move the rest and cut the rest.

Offline PhDBrewer

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2023, 07:55:36 AM »
Are you cutting flats on a round barrel?
Or are you trying to taper a round barrel?

Offline Bison

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2023, 08:35:50 AM »
Tapering a round barrel.

Offline bptactical

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 03:34:52 PM »
You need a Follow Rest.


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Offline okawbow

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2023, 03:50:21 PM »
If you don’t have access to a follower rest, I’ve tapered a long round barrel by cutting a few inches at a time with the compound slide. I start with the muzzle protruding through the head stock a few inches, and cut the first taper. I then move the barrel through a few more inches and just kiss the surface from the first cut. Repeat until finished. May need to turn the barrel around and cut backwards on the breech half, if you lathe is smaller. Then hand file the whole barrel, or as much as you can on your lathe at one time. Then draw file the whole length lightly. Ends up looking good.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2023, 04:53:39 PM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version. 

Offline Bsharp

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2023, 04:56:25 PM »


I use a Spider and then the Steady Rest.

Between centers, using the spider I turn the round portion straight, then off set and use the roller steady rest.

I do the end, move the rest, then then finish.

The better you blend in the two tapers, the less filing and sanding.

This way has less clean-up between the blended tapers.

[Update]
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 07:08:48 PM by Bsharp »
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Offline bluenoser

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2023, 05:03:17 PM »
That spider looks to be a useful addition to the lathe tooling.
Thanks for the idea

Offline JTR

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2023, 05:13:31 PM »
With the barrel set up on centers, and adjusting the taper with the tailstock, with the follow rest set a bit ahead of the cutting tool, it should work just fine. You might need to take care at the end of the cut so the follow rest roller doesn't collide with the tail stock center.
John Robbins

Offline bobw

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2023, 05:51:41 PM »
Use a follow rest to get the barrel to its max diameter, full length.  Then set the lathe for the taper.  Then, If there is a lot of taper I will the step the barrel to rough diameter from the small to large diameter still using the steady in the center.  Like Jim said, you can not use a follow rest on a taper without special equipment.  Then start the taper with  the steady supporting as needed, usually the center.   Last pass is full length, without steady and a light cut.  Might sound crazy, but on that last pass lay a piece of wood or just grab the barrel with an oily hand which will change the barrel harmonics and help with chatter. 

Just as important as work holding is the tooling.  Generally on a manual lathe doing this type of work you can not use carbide insert type tooling.  They are not sharp enough and the nose has too much radius.  I used brazed carbide tools that are manually sharpened, to very sharp.   You do need special grinding wheels to grinding carbide, I use diamond.  The idea is to keep the tool load at a minimum so the setup must be rigid, tool holders place properly, rake and cutting angles correct. My word of warning would be to stop immediately once chatter starts.  If you continue it just get much harder to correct.  I would also setup a test run, 15 inches or so to play with, before starting the barrel.  This is not hard, just get the proper setup and take your time.  I usually start with barrel blanks and take several hour profiling a barrel.  It like watching grass grow!
Bob

Offline bobw

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2023, 05:55:06 PM »
I know a gunsmith that has a spider that looks very similar to the one shown.  My lathe is large enough I generally don’t need one but I would definitely make one for a smaller lathe with a small head stock hole.
Bob

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2023, 06:50:59 PM »
I do it like this:

Cut centers on each end of the barrel
drive the left side of the barrel on a center wiith a lathe dog, face plate of 3-jaw is fine. 
Secure the right side on a live center
Offset the tail stock toward me the amount I want the taper to be
install the steady rest such that it does not deflect the barrel
cut my tapers, one side then the other. 
Check you live center often, as the barrel warms it gets longer and will ruin the center bearings if no loosened a bit. 
Move the steady and touch up the middle of remaining material
Remove tool marks with a belt sander, cover the ways to prevent grit on them

Offline Bsharp

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2023, 07:10:30 PM »
I up dated the above.

I sometimes forget how I did things!!!

My brother uses an aluminum bushing pressed or set screwed over the barrel, just enough to clear the tapered part with the steady rest.

Dust the bushing between centers, then off set the taper and turn.



« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 07:22:36 PM by Bsharp »
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Offline bptactical

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2023, 08:27:21 PM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version.


It certainly will if he is off setting the tail stock.
A straight cut is a straight cut.
The most important thing to be learned from those who demand “Equality For All” is that all are not equal

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2023, 09:51:59 PM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version.


It certainly will if he is off setting the tail stock.
A straight cut is a straight cut.

I can not wrap my head around that. 

If I cut a taper by offsetting the tailstock the cut diameter gets smaller right to left.  As the diameter changes the follower rest need to be adjusted different.  If I do not adjust the follower it will bend the barrel downward  as I cut from right to left.    Near  the headstock it will jam tight.

Why am I wrong? 

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2023, 10:54:58 PM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version.


It certainly will if he is off setting the tail stock.
A straight cut is a straight cut.
The cut is straight, the barrel is no longer straight once the tail stock has been adjusted for taper.
Psalms 144

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2023, 11:31:31 PM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version.


It certainly will if he is off setting the tail stock.
A straight cut is a straight cut.

No.  A taper means the diameter is changing.  A manual follow rest will not compensate for this.  Using the rest ahead of the cutter won’t work either when offsetting the tailstock since the center of your stock changes along the length of the lathe. 

Offline bptactical

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2023, 12:14:49 AM »
Faceplate, dead center, dog the breech end.
Offset tail stock.
The cut is a straight cut relative to the way and tool travel. A follower rest works in this situation.

Or I guess the hundreds of 2’ long taper pins I turned for a machinery company were wrong.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2023, 12:49:53 AM »
The cut is parallel to the lathe ways, but the backside and top are far from parallel to the lathe ways.  This is where the follow rest rides.  Think about it.

Bottom line unless you’re using a hydraulic or some other self adjusting and centering follow rest, it will not follow a taper.


Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2023, 01:07:20 AM »
I agree with Jim Kibler.A hydraulic follower will compensate itself as the taper progresses.
Bob Roller

Offline Bison

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2023, 03:17:54 AM »
Thanks for the information and tips. I am a rank amateur, my friend is letting me use his equipment but is not familiar with this process. I'll keep y'all updated as we progress.

Offline bobw

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2023, 07:40:43 AM »
Follow rest won’t work when cutting a taper, unless it is a modern hydraulic version.


It certainly will if he is off setting the tail stock.
A straight cut is a straight cut.

I can not wrap my head around that. 

If I cut a taper by offsetting the tailstock the cut diameter gets smaller right to left.  As the diameter changes the follower rest need to be adjusted different.  If I do not adjust the follower it will bend the barrel downward  as I cut from right to left.    Near  the headstock it will jam tight.

Why am I wrong?

There’s a good chance you will break the follow rest if allowed to progress too far.  When I got my lathe the follow had been broke and repaired.  Probably due to someone thinking they could use it for a taper cut.

On a manual lathe you will normally cut from the tail stock to the head, right to left.  Even then, under a heavy cut the part may move in a chuck. The head end is much stronger and rigid than the tail end.  That being said the tail end can be off set right or left, thus being able to taper either way.  On a barrel I alway offset the tail end left or toward the operator leaving the larger diameter at the head end.  And you should never clamp the barrel in a chuck when tapering, if you do, you put the barrel in a bind when it gets offset.

Offline bptactical

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2023, 05:20:29 PM »
You know I sat there last night thinking long and hard on this- when I turned all of those taper pins it was about 40 years ago when I was just out of school at a small job shop. The old Polish guy who owned the shop did the set up and I ran stacks of material on that Summit lathe.
I remembered that he made spring loaded plungers for the follow rest.
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Offline Bsharp

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Re: Preventing barrel flex when cutting a tapered profile
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2023, 06:49:56 PM »
I have seen several air cylinder models in my searches.[follower rests]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 07:02:00 PM by Bsharp »
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