Author Topic: First Build - 14 years to start...  (Read 2145 times)

Offline 45dash100

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First Build - 14 years to start...
« on: July 29, 2023, 02:09:22 AM »
Finally started back working on a gun I purchased parts for a long time ago.  Been sitting in the back of the safe, and in boxes for 14 years.

It will be an early Lancaster, most of the parts are from track of the wolf.  Don't remember if it was a kit, or just me picking and choosing.  The stock is fancy maple partially inlet (barrel channel cut, and rod hole drilled).  It will have a 36 inch straight 15/16 .54 caliber green mountain barrel.  I'm trying to remember what my plans were at the time, but I think I just wanted a hunting gun, and swamped barrels were a lot harder to source at the time.  That or I was worried about the extra work, and couldn't find a stock inlet for a swamped barrel in my price range.

Anyway, the gun was more work than I expected at the time, a combination of some really poorly sand cast parts, and poor tools had me give up on it.

I've gotten a lot more handy over the years, and finally figured I better get this thing built.  I'm posting this here to log my build, ask questions, and record my mistakes for future builds.


Not having a lot of wood working experience (I mainly work with metal on a farmer scale), I decided to do some carving before I even touched the gun.  Figured it'd be good practice just getting a feel for chisels on wood before I start trying to inlet things.

My first try was pretty ugly, but I learned a bunch about what not to do.  Starting design was too complicated, and I made all kinds of gouges I didn't want, cut too deep, slipped etc.




Having learned a bit, I grabbed a simpler design, and did some tracing in inkscape.  Inkscape is great, as the vector objects you draw can be easily modified and scaled, plus it's free.



I purchased some 4 inch wide curly maple boards to practice with. The board has a stock like bevel sanded into it with an angle grinder and flap disc. I figure the bevel will up the difficulty a bit, and hopefully be a better learning platform.

To get the drawing from the computer to the wood, I did some researching and saw that acetone does a good job of transferring printer ink (toner) to wood.  I tried a couple different things, but found it worked best if the paper was held down very well, and if you applied a heavy coat of acetone before pressing the paper firmly against the wood with a putty knife.



Pretty nifty, even colors transfer well.



Cut out the outlines with a small 60 degree V chisel and wooden mallet.  My biggest issue, aside from cutting lines I probably shouldn't have was making the cuts a similar depth.  Had to go over things several times, but It did get easier.




With the basic outline done, I started removing background.  This was all done with a #3 sweep 5mm wide Pfeil gouge.  I discovered on my last attempt, that I don't have enough hand control yet to remove wood with a straight chisel.



With the bulk of the wood removed, I tried a few different methods for smoothing and blending the background.  I had the best luck by getting things as smooth as I could with the gouge, then going back over stuff with a bent scraper, and some small riffler files.  Maybe once I get more practice in, a straight chisel will be more controllable for me, which will hopefully make things faster.



After getting stuff leveled, and coming back with some sandpaper, I went back to work on the design.  Tried various methods of trying to add 3 dimensions to the carving.  Some worked well, others not so great.  My biggest issue here came from mistakes made very early, some in the drawing process, and some when cutting background lines.  Some things I just couldn't fix, and others were problematic as I didn't understand the design well enough when tracing.  I think just jumping in and starting to carve was a good idea though.  I now know more about how I should be drawing my scrolls.  Think I'll come up with a standardized approach when drawing, so that I can have a clearer idea at the start of where I want highlights and depth to be.  I've also been sourcing books with original work to get a better feel for how you can manipulate the wood to get the looks you want.

The majority of the cuts here were made with #3, #5, and #8 gouges, along with more uses of the V chisel.  The result is a clumsy poor copy, but better than I thought it would be.   I'll probably sand this one off, and try again with something else.




To be continued...   Hopefully not in another 14 years....  ;D












Offline rich pierce

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2023, 04:07:30 AM »
Looking good. I like how you’ve really worked out your design and are practicing. That looks like fairly high relief from these pictures and a challenge can be to do the work so it to appears to grow out of the architecture as opposed to sitting atop the stock. Easier to do when you have a cheekpiece back edge to lead the design from.
Andover, Vermont

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2023, 04:29:36 AM »
Looking good. I like how you’ve really worked out your design and are practicing. That looks like fairly high relief from these pictures and a challenge can be to do the work so it to appears to grow out of the architecture as opposed to sitting atop the stock. Easier to do when you have a cheekpiece back edge to lead the design from.

Thanks, and you're right, I still need to do more researching and looking at stuff.  If I do any carving on the actual gun, I'll want to make sure it fits with the style.

I had been watching lots of youtube videos, and reading lots of walk through on carving.  Several said heights were often around a 16th of an inch.  I was trying to make them taller on this second attempt, which it turns out is hard to do with a tiny V chisel.  The tallest section measured with some vernier calipers is right about .045".  That's somewhere between 1/16 and 1/32 of an inch in height.  I've since learned, that a lot more stuff is in the shallower end of that range.  The next time I attempt carving, that's what I'll try and do.  Will be easier to blend than taller stuff when there are other edges to worry about.  It's kinda cheating with a practice block of wood, you can smooth things out without much trouble.


###################################################################################################


First new real work on the gun was getting the breech plug fitted and shaped.  Those details can be found in this thread:

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=77521.0




The plug itself was not square, and took a lot of time to get shaped how I wanted.  I probably got too aggressive on the taper, which made inletting take forever.  Next time I'll keep the taper towards the bottom of the plug more reasonable, and spend more time making the final plug dimensions square.  Not being square just made it harder to inlet.

Made some mistakes here as well.  I didn't have any single bevel straight chisels, and made some bad cuts where the barrel will rest, didn't realize it wasn't 90 degrees to the bottom of the barrel channel.  Won't show up on top, but underneath is a problem.  Not all my cuts were very clean on the bottom either.  Continuously adjusting for the taper left edges more frayed than I'd like. 







I also had trouble matching the curve with the stock.  A downside I've discovered with partially shaped stocks.  Made for a lot of adjusting and beating the tang with a hammer.   In the end, I had to reduce the fillet on the underside of the tang, it was just too beefy to get the tang to bend like I wanted. 



Things did go better after I removed some of that fillet, and I'm mostly happy with how it turned out on the surface.  There are more gaps than I'd like on the underside though.  I think I might glue in some shims and adjust things, or go with acraglas.  I figure modern wood glue would probably be more revolutionary for the time period than epoxy, so I don't feel that bad about it.  Will do better the next time for sure though.





I started out with some inlet black.  I had a little bottle that I ordered with the gun parts forever ago.  It's still good, but a bit messy.  Did most of the marking with a sharpie.  That made things a lot easier.



Offline TDM

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2023, 04:49:08 AM »
Best of luck with your “new” build. Glad you got back on it. I’m cutting my teeth on relief carving too, and I’m still not there yet. You’ll get good advice here if you run your designs for review. You’ll have a fine rifle when done.

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2023, 05:02:00 AM »
Best of luck with your “new” build. Glad you got back on it. I’m cutting my teeth on relief carving too, and I’m still not there yet. You’ll get good advice here if you run your designs for review. You’ll have a fine rifle when done.

Thanks.  The carving is fun, but challenging.  There's a lot going on before you even start with artistic aspects.  I'll have to do as you suggest with the reviewing.  That will be very helpful.  Before I do any carving on the gun, I'll want the whole design figured out.  Will probably want to practice each carving section several times too, once I have it down, it'l be time to tackle the real stock.



##########################################################################



I'll be leaving for a couple weeks, so I'll get the last of my progress posted.  I think the next task will be locating the lock.  There's a bit of room to move the position around and still be able to shape the stock properly.  I need to do some research and figure out where the optimal flash hole location will go.  There was a flash hole liner with the gun parts, not sure yet if I will bother to use it or not.  If I don't, I may still want to position the hole in a spot where one can be added later.




Got some more CAD work done last night.  I'd eventually like to model the whole gun.  Think that would be fun, and once parts are modeled, they're a lot easier to build later.

Here's how my barrel is setup at the moment. Added a cut away so the threads can be seen, and a placeholder vent liner.



Plug depth is about .52".  I will need to determine if the plug should be centered on the side flat, how far or below the top of the pan it should be, and how far away the hole should be from the tip of the breech plug.  I'd imagine I don't want to drill into the plug itself.  But that will be something to do on vacation.  Got a copy of "An Intimate Look at The American Longrifle, its Art and Evolution" by D. Hansen.  Gonna spend some time readying though it, and picking out more things to carve, and maybe decide on how I want to further shape the stock.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2023, 05:57:21 AM »
The touch hole needs to be forward of the breech face far enough to clear the liner from interfering with the breech face.  The placement on the side flat of the hole should allow for the liner to be within the flat or it will need the liner to have the edge beveled to match flat it extends into which isnt pretty.  The pan of the lock should be centered on the hole but the hole can be below the bottom of the pan and still function properly,  So you have a little leeway on vertical positioning of the pan.  The long time convention is for the hole to be in the sunrise position with the the top edge of the pan but recent tests show a lower position works just as well.

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2023, 06:24:28 PM »
Thanks, that's what I've been finding. 

I'll think I'll mostly just keep things centered up everywhere, as there is no need to push things in any direction. 


Had a bit of time on vacation to read.  The Foxfire section on flintlocks is quite interesting.  We'll be excited to get back in the shop when I return home.

Offline 2 shots

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2023, 05:38:24 PM »
 not too bad, i have one i have been messin with for 21 years  ;D

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2023, 07:28:08 PM »
not too bad, i have one i have been messin with for 21 years  ;D

Hah.  Maybe if I keep delaying things, I'll make it to 20 years.

Finally got all the stuff I need to glass the rough bits in the tang inlet.  Going to tackle that this weekend.  Using brownells acraglas gel, and their spray on Acra-Release agent.

Offline elkhorne

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2023, 09:05:35 PM »
45dash100,
Looking good! Good luck with the Acraglas gel and Brownells release agent. I have to do one soon on a Fowler I purchased that was poorly inlet in the breech area. Been procrastinating and studying on mine also. Be sure to put clay in any holes or depressions like the back of the barrel where the breech plug mates up. Usually a couple of small depressions in there. I’ve got lockbolt and tang holes to contend with but doesn’t look like you will be bothered with those. Good luck and looking forward to seeing your progress.

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2023, 10:18:53 PM »
45dash100,
Looking good! Good luck with the Acraglas gel and Brownells release agent. I have to do one soon on a Fowler I purchased that was poorly inlet in the breech area. Been procrastinating and studying on mine also. Be sure to put clay in any holes or depressions like the back of the barrel where the breech plug mates up. Usually a couple of small depressions in there. I’ve got lockbolt and tang holes to contend with but doesn’t look like you will be bothered with those. Good luck and looking forward to seeing your progress.

Good idea with the clay.  Was just looking at that, and trying to decide if I should cover things up with masking tape, clay will be a lot easier.

Thought about waiting until I have the tang bolts and such in place, but I think this will be easier.  Supposedly acraglas sticks well to itself, so if I need to tweak things later after drilling through it, I can.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 10:32:33 PM by 45dash100 »

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2023, 04:06:05 AM »
Filled the gaps with modeling clay.  Considered polishing all the parts, but figured it probably wasn't worth the work, just made sure that everything was tapered well, and adequately coated with release agent. 




Used the black tint brownells sells.  If you're doing this to an already finished gun, you'd probably want to do a better job of taping.  I'm going to be removing a bunch of wood from this area, and doing a bunch of sanding, so I wasn't too concerned about staining.  It goes in ok for epoxy with pretty long fibers.  Might be a pain if you have screw holes to deal with.




Put the barrel in place, and clamped it down well.  The excess that squishes out was easy to clean off the tape.



I feel much much better about the fit now.  Shouldn't have any trouble long term either from recoil or environmental effects due to my less than practiced in-letting.  Pulled the barrel out after 8 hours or so.  The excess I had on my mixing board hard firmed up quite well, and figured I should give it a shot.  Came right out, nothing at all stuck to the barrel.








Offline Crow Choker

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2023, 04:23:22 AM »
I have a CVA Kentucky flint kit in 45 I bought back in the late 70's. Started working on it then, then some in the 80's, a bit in the 90's, finally picked it out of mothballs several years ago only to get it probably 75% finished. About the only thing left to do with it is finish metal and wood. Just got some flints for it from Track so hopefully this fall will fire it after gettin it some 45-46 years ago.

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2023, 04:26:45 AM »
Nothing like a 100% fit however you can get it. I had a chunk blow out behind the tang on a gun that I did decades ago. No fun at all and looking for a thumbnail piece of wood somewhere around the firing line. That was the last time that happened to me. Carry on bro!!
W
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Offline elkhorne

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2023, 06:22:10 AM »
You did a great job on the bedding! Glad the modeling clay worked good for you. I’ve got to deal with screw holes before I can bed. I plan to just fill them with the clay and a friend suggested putting small pieces of electrical tape over the rear lock bolt hole and the tang screw hole before spraying with Brownell’s release agent. I have an open rear lock bolt hole in the stock so I’m planning on rolling a piece of clay and filling the hole with that. If I have to drill out the hole after bedding, I’ll do that but the back of the barrel will be much stronger after bedding. I have some of Brownell’s fiberglass floc that I might add for strength. Also saw on here sometime back that a member used the metallic tape for HVAC use to keep the bedding material that squeezes out. I think I will use one of those plastic milk jug handle inserts to use as my scraper to clean off the excess that squeezes out after clamping the barrel in. Hope mine comes out as good as yours!

Offline 45dash100

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Re: First Build - 14 years to start...
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2023, 08:04:14 PM »
I have a CVA Kentucky flint kit in 45 I bought back in the late 70's. Started working on it then, then some in the 80's, a bit in the 90's, finally picked it out of mothballs several years ago only to get it probably 75% finished. About the only thing left to do with it is finish metal and wood. Just got some flints for it from Track so hopefully this fall will fire it after gettin it some 45-46 years ago.

Excellent.  Now I really don't feel bad.  Good luck getting it going!

Nothing like a 100% fit however you can get it. I had a chunk blow out behind the tang on a gun that I did decades ago. No fun at all and looking for a thumbnail piece of wood somewhere around the firing line. That was the last time that happened to me. Carry on bro!!
W

Yeah, that sucks.  I might relieve a little bit of the epoxy directly behind the tang point to really make sure this doesn't happen.  Should be good though with the 100% fit at the back of the barrel and lower plug.

You did a great job on the bedding! Glad the modeling clay worked good for you. I’ve got to deal with screw holes before I can bed. I plan to just fill them with the clay and a friend suggested putting small pieces of electrical tape over the rear lock bolt hole and the tang screw hole before spraying with Brownell’s release agent. I have an open rear lock bolt hole in the stock so I’m planning on rolling a piece of clay and filling the hole with that. If I have to drill out the hole after bedding, I’ll do that but the back of the barrel will be much stronger after bedding. I have some of Brownell’s fiberglass floc that I might add for strength. Also saw on here sometime back that a member used the metallic tape for HVAC use to keep the bedding material that squeezes out. I think I will use one of those plastic milk jug handle inserts to use as my scraper to clean off the excess that squeezes out after clamping the barrel in. Hope mine comes out as good as yours!

The Acraglas already has a good big of fiberglass in it, I don't know if you'll need to add any to increase strength.  I'd imagine there's diminishing returns and probably a point where it negatively affects things.  No clue where that line is though.

I just wiped the excess goop that squished out with a paper towel, you can probably avoid the scraper thing, unless you have a surface you want to let firm up before removing overflow.