Paradox muzzleloader ?

[bob in the woods]

The paradox gun, ie a smoothbore having the last 2 or 3 inches of the barrel rifled, was supposed to shoot both shot and ball well.  Would this concept be adaptable to a  20 bore muzzleloading gun ?   Thoughts ?

[Daryl]

Bob I would suggest it would only work with a breech loader.
I cannot visualize loading a patched ball nor shot wads through the rifled choke section and getting good results when fired.
. With shot  maybe,  but the intent would be to get good results with both shot and ball.
Perhaps the only way to find out would be to do it.

[hanshi]

A good load in a normal smoothbore would do as well or likely better.

[bob in the woods]

Bob I would suggest it would only work with a breech loader.
I cannot visualize loading a patched ball nor shot wads through the rifled choke section and getting good results when fired.
. With shot  maybe,  but the intent would be to get good results with both shot and ball.
Perhaps the only way to find out would be to do it.

I'm sorry for not being more descriptive and clear about this.
We have many examples of straight rifling being utilized with the concept of shooting both shot and round balls. The straight rifling is said to enhance the round ball accuracy while not impeding the shot pattern. I was wondering if having the last 3 or 4 inches of a normal smoothbore barrel "straight rifled" would have a positive affect on round ball stabilization /accuracy.   I might just have to try it

[axelp]

Timing is everything when trying to shoot a "par o ducks" with a single barrel flintlock.

[Daryl]

Interesting idea. Only one way to find out, Bob.

[ScottNE]

Bob I would suggest it would only work with a breech loader.
I cannot visualize loading a patched ball nor shot wads through the rifled choke section and getting good results when fired.
. With shot  maybe,  but the intent would be to get good results with both shot and ball.
Perhaps the only way to find out would be to do it.

I'm sorry for not being more descriptive and clear about this.
We have many examples of straight rifling being utilized with the concept of shooting both shot and round balls. The straight rifling is said to enhance the round ball accuracy while not impeding the shot pattern. I was wondering if having the last 3 or 4 inches of a normal smoothbore barrel "straight rifled" would have a positive affect on round ball stabilization /accuracy.   I might just have to try it

What is the theory behind how straight rifling is more accurate than a smooth bore? Does is center the ball more certainly than smooth, or prevent the ball from developing a random spin (ie be rotating in any given direction) and consequently tending in that direction upon exiting the muzzle? Basically cause the ball to be thrown more or less dead straight out the muzzle? If so, I could see that improving consistency at shorter ranges, but not doing much for accuracy at any range that one would use a rifled barrel for.

It strikes me as an attempt to have one's cake and eat it too, developed at a time before the science behind ballistics was fully understood. It seems that some shooters do swear by straight rifling. At the same time though, some shooters swear coning ruins a barrel and some swear that it doesn't. "The Last Duel", an excellent book about the last fatal duel in Scotland betwen David Landale and George Morgan, touches on the fact that Morgan used a flintlock pistol while Landale used a percussion, and delves a bit into that, during the period of transition from flint to percussion, some folks swore that their flintlocks "shot harder" than the newfangled detonating pistols. We know now of course that this isn't the case. I wonder if straight rifling actually does much of anything.

[axelp]

I recently acquired a straight rifled 20 g barreled French styled fowler built by TVM and have hunted tree rats successfully with it. it shoots shot quite well. I have not shot much round ball with it yet but hope to. Gotta get out more!!! I think the theory with straight rifling is stabilizing the ball. from what I have read, you can stabilize a roundball by spinning it, or you can stabilize it by keeping it from spinning--think like a knuckleball in baseball.

I also own a standard smoothbore Chambers PA Fowler that I absolutely love. It is my "go to" gun for just about everything. It seems to fit me well. I feel more confident shooting it (out to 80 yards) than I do my flintlock rifled guns.

I cannot claim to be a great rifle marksman, but I have always been decent shooting shotguns (hunting and clays)

Ken

[Jim S]

In baseball, the knuckleball is supposed to be unpredictable, drifts or darts around making it hard to hit.
It seems to me the only thing straight rifling would do is put some grooves in the ball.

[axelp]

It's not a new thing, and there are modern shotguns that sport straight rifling. I think it is found in early german hunting guns as well.

Not sure if it improves roundball or shot accuracy to any huge degree, but I know in my experience shooting my gun that it does no harm. I am not sure how much random spin is generated in the barrel anyway. Maybe not enough to worry about?

I have read that it was mainly intended to help with fouling. Tests with modern guns seem to indicate that straight rifling help generate a more even shot pattern but there are so many variables to that who knows for sure?

The tree rats I have harvested with it have not complained, and the few times I have shot roundball out of it? I hit what I was aiming at. I like my gun just fine.

But I can honestly say the same about my smoothbore fowling piece. Maybe the secret to better shooting is in the shooters head and how the gun fits you, so the magic behind straight rifling might be creating shooter confidence.

K

[Bob Roller]

Rifling??I think straight grooves  are called splines and in a gun barrel may give a resting place for fouling in a black powder gun.
No benefit as to keeping a ball or bullet stable for long range but then a round ball at close range needs no spin at all.
Bob Roller

[Jim S]

On the subject of rifling, it seems to me that there would be a certain rotation rate that would stabilize a ball the best - that is a certain number revolutions per minute. Not all balls would have the same "sweet spot" of course. Maybe the most perfect cast and uniformly dense ones could be spun faster.
The rpm's are set by muzzle velocity, twist rate, barrel length, and probably some other stuff. Maybe our experimenting with different loads for accuracy is really just finding that right spin rate.
Or am I full of beans?

[Bob Roller]

The first barrel Bill Large made in his then new shop was in 1958 and it was 58 caliber with a 1 in 44"twist and 8 grooves.With a tightly patched .575 round ball and 65 grains of old DuPont or Curtis&Harvey it would remove the "X"ring at 100 yards (measured yards) as opposed to "Hunters yards" from a rest.No fancy sights but a Lyman 17A with an aperture insert and common buckhorn rear on the barrel.
I do know a similar barrel from Bill in the early 1970's with a Malcolm telescope and also 58 caliber with 100 grains of the same powders would stay in the 9 ring of a 100 yard target at 399 measured yards.I think that ball weighed 280 grains as cas
t from pure lead (X ray shield).
That yardage is a bit over the top for a round ball but then there were and still are,smaller bore guns with long heavy bullets and the .451 is very much used at distances of 1000 and 1200 yards and the bullets mostly around 550 grains and 75 to 100 grains of black powder and the barrels are seen with 1 in 16 and 18 inches to make sure the long bullet travels point first.In the past I have shot a semi military Whitworth with a seven groove 1 in 18 twist barrel and worked up a load small kids could fire and a friend who was in a wheelchair without getting the jolt the long range,heavy bullet could give them.45 grains of 3fg and a patched 445 ball and fine groups at 50 yards and nobody hurt by the low recoil.The man in the wheel chair was a Marine and blown up in VietNam and had a high spinal cord injury.That fine muzzle loader was a
real source of entertainment for him along with a black powder pistol.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

That's darn good shooting, Bob.  I recall from my .58 days back in the 70's & 80's, that the Lyman .575" mould I had, case 285gr. RB's. I never measured their diameter, but used them as-cast
with .022" "brushed denim" I got from the sewing store, without any loading problems. I even used the same combination in the Large, Numrich Arms and Zouave barrels.
The large barrel had a 60" (maybe 56") ROT, while the Numrich was anyone's guess (48" maybe) and the Rem. Zouave was 72" with only .003" rifling depth.
The Large needed 140gr. 2F GOEX, 120gr. in the Numrich and Zouave for best accuracy at 100yards.
1 1/2" best for the Large barrel,  2" each for the other 2.

[WKevinD]

Bob Hoyt has been making 20 gauge smoothbore barrels with a choke (to.57) that threads on to muzzle, a great turkey choke. We had discussed also having a 3-4" rifled section. Never got past discussion.
Kevin

[Daryl]

A paradox-style straight rifled section at the muzzle, should have a slight choking effect on a shot charge, as in effect, it is a rifled choke. How well it would work when muzzle loaded,
is the question. If using Track's felt wads, it might just work quite well, tightening patters, that is. With solid shot (ball), it's hard to say.
Knuckle balls in baseball, usually gave up and down (vertical) oscillations, making the ball difficult to hit. At supersonic speeds, it's difficult to say what would happen as speed changes
"things". We do know that the higher the speed, the longer the distance a smoothbore maintains accuracy.