Author Topic: A Kentucky Kentucky?  (Read 4876 times)

keithvance62

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A Kentucky Kentucky?
« on: December 15, 2009, 11:34:35 PM »
Heres an old rifle that was found in Paris, KY. I would like to know if anyone has any idea about where and when it was made. Sorry for the poor pictures, had a really dark day today. Signed J C on top flat, .41 cal. muzzle flared to .45, brass mountings, maple stock, tapered and flared barrel. I would like everyone's opinion on whether or not it was flint or cap.

Keith Vance









wbgv

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 11:39:50 PM »
my opinion is that it is/was a percussian...don't see any 'notch' cut in the lock moulding for the flint hammer to clear...

Offline WElliott

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 12:17:18 AM »
Agreed, probably originally percussion. From what I can see in the pictures, there is no notch for a flint hammer and the trigger guard is of a type I associate with rifles made in the 1840s or later.  The style of the buttstock looks earlier, however,  so perhaps this rifle was made by a gunsmith who had been around for awhile.
Wayne
Wayne Elliott

Offline Curt J

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 06:26:12 AM »
I agree also, it appears to have always been percussion.  It looks like it might date from the 1840's, but a gunsmith who was "set in his ways" might have made it quite a bit later than that.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 08:36:26 AM »
Keith, You have an interesting gun. There was a John Clinkenbeard who worked in Bourbon County, who left two earlier guns with full Lexington patchboxes and different, more typical "Lexington" style trigger guards. But this rifle has the correct two flats filed on the guard, and small cheekpiece with single mold line, for that area. Would it be possible to provide a better photo of the mortise for the side plate, so I can see its full outline? I'd also like to see the complete tang, and a more clear picture of the barrel initials if possible, to see if I can help you further. Can you also give barrel length, and tell me how far off the rear ramrod pipe the rear sight sits? I do not know if it is Clinkerbeard's work, only a possibility based on initials at this time, not on gun itself. But perhaps I can help you i.d. the gun with better photos of details.

By the way, your old "Bryan" parts are currently in the process of being stocked. It's been a long, slow process, particularly to stretch the barrel without damaging the silver inlay with the welding heat. But that's finally done and turned out rather nicely, and the barrel is now being fitted with a stock. Hope to have it done for February show in KY.   Shelby Gallien.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 08:42:59 AM by Tanselman »

keithvance62

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 02:29:46 PM »
Thank you all , I think it always was percussion to,but the man that owns it wants to put a flintlock on it.Ill do what i can to talk him out of it.I may have to trade him out of it.Shelby,Ill get better pics today.Barrel has been cut from the muzzle i think. The muzzel cap is over the upper thimble inlet.Upper thimble is moved back. Barrel length is 41.Ill bring this rifle to Mels show.I hope the Bryan is finished,cant wait to see it, Keith Vance

keithvance62

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2009, 02:36:36 AM »
Shelby here are the pictures you wanted. I'm curious about this rifle.

Keith Vance






Offline Tanselman

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2009, 10:10:19 AM »
Keith - Looks like the barrel was cut about 3" off breech, plus anything that might have been cut off at muzzle, so at least 44" to begin with, which is about right for central KY. The gun has a number of features from the cental Bluegrass region, but also a couple that aren't commonly seen on those guns. The side plate has softened "horns" on either side of the top lock bolt, which is expected, but I've never seen a side plate from that area that's as long as this one without the front bolt hole.... except a single example from up in Bracken Co. Lexington style rifles by gunsmiths with NC roots usually have longer tangs with two bolts, while Bluegrass gunsmiths with VA roots often used this style tang with a single bolt... so perhaps the gunsmith was trained in VA, or trained in KY by an older gunsmith originally trained in VA.  

I think this is an early percussion gun, mid-to-late 1830s. If later, the side plate would be simpler.  It is possible it was a late flintlock (made in early percussion era) with the commonly seen double throat "military" style cock that does not require a relief cut in the stock above the cock. Such locks were common on late flintlocks with rounded tails, such as late flint Golcher locks, and single bolts were not uncommon on such locks in KY. The butt plate is a later style as  well, and does not have the expected raised ridge on the top extension of a Bluegrass gun. The second independent spur off the guard's bow is also unusual, coming off the bow farther forward than normal for a double spurred style guard. So it has features of a central Bluegrass region gun, but also a few uncommon details that seem to indicate, if from the Bluegrass, perhaps a fringe area, and most probably the northern area up toward the river, based on the guard style with the doubled tipped rear spur. I also think the first initial on the barrel could be a "T" but haven't found any probable matches with the various possibilities, other than John Clinkenbeard, but I'll keep looking.  I look forward to seeing the gun in February.  Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 07:16:06 PM by Tanselman »

Offline WElliott

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2009, 12:26:35 AM »
Shelby, I always look forward to your posts.  Thanks for your great observations and for educating us.
Wayne
Wayne Elliott

Offline JTR

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Re: A Kentucky Kentucky?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2009, 01:29:25 AM »
Shelby, I'll agree with Wayne on you knowing these Kentucky Kentucky's! The knowledge base on this forum never fails to amaze me!
Add an approiate lock and side plate to that rifle, and a bit of wood at the lock side of the tang, and it'll be a fine looking example.
To me, the barrel sig looks like J C.

John
John Robbins