P.C.Angstadt...any biographical information ?

[monro1066]

With the many Angstadts out there ,and not having good reference at hand either hard copy books or inet images
any biographical information would be greatly appreciated .
TY in advance
Don







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[Eric Kettenburg]

That's a later guy, not sure who his father was but Dave or Noel might know.  This is not the Peter Angstadt who was making the very funky lion-carved rifles (amongst other funky rifles) in Rockland twp Berks and died in 1815.

This P.C. Angstadt also made a really killer pipe hawk, it's in one of the books but I don't remember which one.  For some reason I think he might have been working in the Kutztown area later on but not positive.

[Buck]

Don,

Nice rifle, not my area of expertise. My guess (without referencing my notes) would be this individual comes from the line of Abraham Anstadt. Abraham moved West to Ohio and then settled in Indiana.

Noel

[DaveM]

Don,
Very nice rifle!

Based on the research I have, this maker is likely the one Buck suggests - Peter Angstadt born in Berks County Pa in 1807, and later working / died in Indiana. He was the son of gunsmith Abraham Angstadt.

Your Peter's father Abraham was born in Berks County. Abraham's father almost had to be Adam, noted below (Adam lived in Berks between roughly 1740-1812) but Abraham's birth record has not been found). If Adam was not Abraham's father, it would have had to be one of Adam's brothers - but I think one brother had moved from the area by the time Abraham was born, and no evidence has been found that the other brothers were gunsmiths. And the earlier gunsmith Adam's son Peter (Berks 1763-1815) could not have been your Peter's father because he had a child several months earlier the same year Abraham was born.

Shortly after Abraham married in 1806 he moved to near Orwigsburg, in what is now Schuylkill County, Pa., in around 1806 to 1810. He then moved his family to Indiana sometime between 1830 and 1840 when Peter was around 23 to 33 years old. So, the fellow who made your rifle likely started making guns while they were still in the Orwigsburg area.

Abraham's guns are sometimes attributed to Adam Angstadt (Berks / Kutztown maker abt 1740-abt 1812) when you search for examples. I don't believe there are actually any rifles signed by Adam, that I am aware of. I did not do any research on your Peter in Indiana, so do not have a date he died or anything - this is all I have.

[Avlrc]

In the 1850 Montgomery County Ohio, German township Census, there is a gunsmith Peter Angstadt, age 41. Ohio Book, Vol. III page 223.

[DaveM]

That's interesting, I'll bet that is him! Maybe he went off on his own into Ohio instead of staying in Indiana?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave, have you ever found another Peter Angstadt somewhere in Berks - possibly Kutztown - during approximately the same period as the "Rockland Peter" or perhaps a bit later (say, into the 1820s-1830s) that was *not* the Rockland Peter but was also a gunsmith?

I distinctly remember someone telling me or showing me something many years ago about a Peter Angstadt in Kutztown but I don't recall ever trying to verify.

[DaveM]

I didn't find any other Peter Angstadts who were gunsmiths but I could be missing someone. The only "Peter" gunsmiths I found were:
-Peter (son of Adam 1763-1815 Rockland Twp)
-Peter (likely son of Abraham, as we are discussing (1807-?? Ohio / Indiana)

I looked back at my notes and had the following about the one in Ohio:
from my notes: "Peter Angstadt, Born 1807.  A “gunsmith” living in Germany, Montgomery County, Ohio, between 1838-1850.  By 1860, he was living in Cicero, Tipton, Indiana and noted as a farmer.  His wife was Elizabeth (Bonner) born in Maryland.  " They had a daughter born in Ohio in 1838.

I found several other Peter Angstadts in Berks but none I found were described as gunsmiths. Two of them were shoemakers.
- The 1767-1768 Robeson Township tax lists show at least two early Peter Angstadt. In 1767 there was on Peter there with 50-acres. In 1768, there was one with "3 acres cleared and two mills" and another on the "single men" portion of the tax lists. John Reiffsnyder (probably the later Reading gun maker) was on the same Robeson single men's tax list for 1768. By 1770 neither this Peter Angstadt nor John Reifsnyder were listed in robeson. No occupations were shown for Robeson.
- The 1820 census lists a Peter Angstadt over age of 45, occupation unknown. Him and his wife sold a property in 1824 (he was just listed as a "yoeman").
- The 1850 census lists a Peter Angstadt in Kutztown born about 1810 a shoemaker.
- The 1850 census lists a Peter Angstadt in Rockland Twp, born in 1820, a shoemaker.

 Also saw in my notes that in the 1850 census Abraham was still living in Germantown, Wayne, Indiana and had a son there named Adam (another clue for Abraham's father). This Adam was born in about 1826 and was a gunsmith also, living in the house of his parents.

[Buck]

Don,

Jeff Jaeger is the Indiana expert and has researched the Anstadts time there. I would guess your rifle to be of Ohio origin, Jeff might be able to help in this instance.

Noel

[monro1066]

Thankyou all for the info and comments etc
Don

[marko]

From “All About Abraham,” by John Angstadt:

“Peter was born about 1807. As a youth he would have been a gunsmith apprentice to his father, becoming a Journeyman Gunsmith by 1828. He moved to Ohio about 1835, marrying Elizabeth Benner in 1836. They probably lived with her parents for several years; Peter was not listed as head of a household in the 1840 Census. By 1850, of course, he was so listed in the census of that year. From 1837 to 1850 they had three sons and three daughters. In 1851 they sold their home in German Township, Montgomery County, OH and moved to Cicero Township, Tipton County, IN. There Peter eventually reunited with brother Adam and sisters Elizabeth and Catherine (Katherina). Another son and three daughters, born from 1853 to 1864, completed their family. Peter's precise date of death is not known, but it was about 1865-70. His burial place is also unknown.”

[Buck]

Dave,

Abraham naming his sons Adam and Peter eludes to the obvious regarding his lineage. We haven’t thrown it around in a while - figure I’d kick the dust up a bit.

Buck

[DaveM]

Noel, I completely agree. Not a coincidence!

[Buck]

Dave,

Have you reviewed the Susquehanna Section of the Library? They list Gideon Angstadt as a builder from the area and mention a signed rifle. Myself, Eric and Patrick H have discussed this elusive signed Gideon Rifle, have you ever seen this purported "ghost" ?

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm still looking myself but thus far, a big nada.  I'd want a bit more than a late rifle with a "GA" on it too!

[DaveM]

I have never seen a signed Gideon Angstadt rifle though I can't say I have been actively looking. Knowing he was a late gunsmith it would seem likely that one exists? Although he did die at the relatively young age of 54.

It would be interesting to see a signed one to look for consistency in design to other Angstadt guns.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave - somewhere in one of the 'old' books there was mention of a rifle *signed* by Gideon Angstadt, but unfortunately I've yet to encounter anyone who has ever seen one.

The attributions are all interesting, but there is not a consistency among them (to my mind) and without having a signed piece as a basis for comparison, how accurate can an attribution be?

[Buck]

Eric / Dave,

I have seen two that are identical in architecture and decor. Patrick owned one of them (pictured in his Berks CO book) and I owned the other and I don't recall seeing another like them. I can't speak for Patrick but if memory serves correctly he had only heard of a signed rifle but never laid eyes on it. How the attribution came about was discussed but I can't recall the details.

Like they say in Mexico, Sancho is like the devil. He exists but you never see him!

Noel

[DaveM]

Noel and Eric,  to complicate things further, there were likely a few other (maybe unknown) Kutztown area makers responsible for some of the other unsigned funky pieces occassionally seen around from the early 1800’s. Throw these in mix and that really confuses things!

[DaveM]

Was just doing a little searching and found this. No photo of the signature though. Anyone know this rifle?


Poulin auction May 2022.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Just "GA" but I find that fairly believable - it sure LOOKS like an Angstadt, doesn't it?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Looking back through my insane amount of picture files, I can say that someone here has an unsigned rifle that was clearly made by this same guy and is just a bit less elaborate.  So, if this rifle above is in fact Gideon, then it puts a name on the unsigned piece because to my mind they definitely look to have been made by the same man.  Maybe we're getting somewhere with Gideon!

Maybe the owner might be willing to post some photos?

[Buck]

Eric / Dave,

That’s interesting. A GA initial doesn’t sell me, though the rifle screams Angstadt. Dave, was there a George Angstadt that was a gunsmith or were they all farmers and weavers? The Gideon rifle that I owned is in the library here, Eric is this the rifle you eluded to?

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Buck I can't find it.  Link? 

I got the photos I have from someone else here who had it at the time and it's unsigned but sure does look like the same maker of the Poulin rifle above, including same weird two-piece sideplates.

[Buck]

Eric - the link:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16882.0

Gable picked it up after I had sold it.