Swiss lands and groove's - lots of them

[holzwurm]

The Curator of the museum in Switzerland to whom I sent the Schuetzen discovered a rack of more Jeanette guns in her attic and is sending me pictues of all of them. In the last batch there is a really strange image of the muzzle.



 I've ask her to send some more because I am curious about that wedge shapped item on the right flat. This is a full stocked rifle with a schuetzen style buttplate, and I'm wondering if that wedge is part of a bayonet fixture - which would make this gun a military rifle rather than a target. I'v never seen so many lands and groove's. It must have taken some master engineering to create the rifleing machine to make so many so small.
Comments?

[Dave K]

Looks like a Marlin with Micro groove.

[holzwurm]

this is a ca 1850 full stock rifle.
Micro grooving is a new term to me. Who does it and why?

[Dave K]

Marlin does it on several guns, but I am most famliar with it on the Marlin Golden 39A. This is a lever action 22 that has it's roots back to around 1892. The gun was rifled in the standard rifling until about 1956, '57, '58 (?) when they adopted micro groove rifling for it. It is rifling that appears just like the gun you have shown. I don't know why they do it, for it may just be a marketing thing. But for a lever action 22, it is a pretty accurate gun. Can't say though if it is more accurate than the older standard rifling.

[T*O*F]

I'm wondering if that wedge is part of a bayonet fixture - which would make this gun a military rifle rather than a target.

It is for a bayonet.  You may recall that even though the Swiss were neutral, every adult male was a de facto member of the militia and required by law to own and be proficient with a gun.  Swiss guns typically have a Schuetzen look to them.

[doug]

     Here is another photo of Swiss rifling circa 1840.  The square tube was for a type of socket bayonet.  The next photo down is a Pattern of 1851 Swiss rifle and would have been in .41 caliber while the bottom gun goes with the muzzle shot and is a Swiss sniping rifle that would have been used up to the date of the unified army of 1851.  Regular troops were armed with a percussion Charleville, I believe.  Also note that Switzerland was not a unified country until 1848 and did not have a unified army until 1851

cheers Doug

[holzwurm]

Doug - are the trigger guards cast or does it look like an assembly? I've inquired of Caroline (we are on first name basis now) about some of the other trigger guards on the Jeannet rifles the museum has. They have that flamboyant curved and linked trigger guard that I just have to think had to be cast.

[holzwurm]

but - getting back to the lands and grooves a moment. I've seen the rifling rig used at Colonial williamsberg gun shop in action and I'm trying to extrapolate that technology over to being able to build one that would cut all the mini grooves in the swiss barrel. I'm wondering if a maker of that era would have a barrel making capability or are we perhaps looking at a "Barrel Maker" who made a living doing this like we do today. Few of us have actually MADE a barrel - we order them from the guys who make a living at do it (Rice, Rayle, etc).

If the rifling machine that cut those grooves exist's I'd like to see it.

[doug]

    the trigger guards are pretty heavy and are cast.  They hook into the stock in the front much like a hooked breach and are held in at the back by the large screw.  Purpose appears to be so that you can adjust the set triggers.  The top gun is identical to a P51 rifle except that it has a .49 caliber hexagonal Whitworth style bore.  Most puzzling because the .41 caliber military guns I think were known to be accurate and long range guns.

cheers Doug

[holzwurm]

We were correct about that wedge on the flat being a bayonet attachment lug. This puts this rifle squarely in the hands of a Swiss soldier/mercenary

[jwh1947]

Just some general background.  A bayonet on a Swiss rifle would be most reasonable.  We see the Swiss as a neutral nation, non-militant but sensible on defense, but one may then ask, why then does the Pope employ the Swiss Guard as the Vatican's body guards?

The answer is simple.  When first employed there as armed guards in the late 15th Century, the Swiss were known throughout Europe as not only the fiercest fighters, but also the most noble, dedicated, and honorable guards that could be hired.  They would never sell out or retreat.  You could count on them to "have you back" regardless of the immediate situation.  

Go to Lucerne and seek out the statue of the Dying Lion of Lucerne.  With a spear in his side he still charged forward, a symbol of the faithfulness of the Swiss Guard. There is a little park there today with falling water and a place to sit and contemplate it.

This is not the first rifle from the region that I have seen  that was obviously made for hunting but was built with a bayonet attachment.  Traditionally, the Swiss were taught to take care of themselves, and if pressed into service for national defense they were expected to come armed.  Incidentally, we, too, had military Kentuckies, and an old friend of mine, Everett (Birdie) Partridge, may his soul rest in peace, had the finest collection of them probably ever assembled.  

Incidentally, the Swiss Guard that you see today in the Vatican is largely ceremonial.  The ones that you don't see dress in plain clothes and carry modern weapons.  What, you expect the Pope to ride around with less security than a U.S. President?

[frogwalking]

Holzwurm.

Please tell her to oil that bore!   That dry rusty look gives me the creeps. 

[holzwurm]

Holzwurm.

Please tell her to oil that bore!   That dry rusty look gives me the creeps. 

Since we are on a first name basis now I'm sdure she will accept that suggestion. 

[Kermit]

To the best of my knowledge, the Swiss men are still required to be trained and to practice regularly, and that this "on-call" status lasts into their forties. Last I knew (haven't visited in about a decade), they were required to return empty shell casings periodically to prove that they had fired the gun--hopefully practicing--regularly. The empties also assured that they were not stockpiling or selling ammunition. We may think of them as traditional and nationalistic in defense of their country, but the government takes pains to see that no one has too much firepower. And it wouldn't much matter who was crossing their borders, they'd pick off an American if it was us invading. Neutral means just that. They've guarded that international standing fiercly. I understand that our means of contact in some countries of the world is through the Swiss embassies.

It makes some American tourists nervous to learn that the highway tunnels through the mountains have heavy doors and are armed with explosive charges blow them into disuse to keep invaders working as hard as possible. I personally like their attitudes.

[jwh1947]

Correct.  Most Swiss civilians keep military-type weapons in their homes and there is still an annual National Shooting Day where the government issues free ammunition.  They have shooting facilities with tunnels between the firing line and the target, preventing strays and accidents, and cutting down on noise pollution in populated areas.  Ladies too.  

I know we're not to wax politically on the site, but allow me to say that this is firearms legislation/policy that appears to me to be both appropriate and useful.  Keep in mind, also, fundamental cultural differences.  While three languages are used in Switzerland, their culture is more homogeneous, and their country much smaller.  They also are expected to display personal and civil responsibility and be accountable for their actions.  Personal injury lawyers not as common, either. Hate to say it, but it just might not work as well over here.

[The other DWS]

I'm a new registrant who just found my way here.  I've been very active for a number of years in the American Single shot rifle assoc. which perpetuates a from of the Swiss/Germanic Schuetzen tradition.   while I'm interested in several specific types of "america longrifles"  I'm als VERY interested in the muzzle loading target rifles used by the Schuetzen rifleman in the years preceding the breechloading single shot cartridge target rifles.

I'm responding here becaause it appears to me that the rifle shown in post #6 above is very much a muzzle loading target rifle the trigger guard style and the rear diopter sight are very similar to my original percussion schuetzen rifle, made in chicago in the 1880s

[holzwurm]

I'm a new registrant who just found my way here. 

I'm responding here becaause it appears to me that the rifle shown in post #6 above is very much a muzzle loading target rifle the trigger guard style and the rear diopter sight are very similar to my original percussion schuetzen rifle, made in chicago in the 1880s

That trigger guard is on a Schuetzen in the museum of Le Locle Switzerland. The phpto was sent to me by the conservtric there.

[The other DWS]

Not at all surprised.  As I noted in the other thread,  it is pretty commonly assumed that a number of components, sights, set triggers, locks, trigger guards and buttplates were imported for use by American gunsmith/fabricators.  complete rifles appear to have been imported and marked by the american seller as well

[northmn]

When I collected WWII military rifles I read an exerpt abput a conversation a Swiss officee had with a German Officer in which the German, who respected Swiss marksmanship asked about how they would defend against a superior German invasion in whichthey would be outnumbered.  The Swiss reply was that "we might have to shoot twice".   The model 41 Swiss I had was very accurate and they are used by some in military competitions.  Draw back are the open sights for competition.  Many also state that they may have been lucky not to have to use the straight pull action in combat as the guns were finely machined and would not have worked well under tough conditions.  While we learn slowly, experience is a good teacher.

DP