Customizing a Kibler SMR

[Jim Kibler]

45 dash,

You've done some good things with the modeling.  This isn't easy for sure.  I've come from a background of doing everything by hand to where machines do most of the work and I can tell you that it is far easier to do it by hand for the customizing you are working on.  I can help if you have any questions with this I can help.  Now, if the CAD stuff is your comfort and what you like to do, I understand.  There are some pretty tricky aspects to forming a nosecap well.  The biggest one is forming the groove and ending up with sharp corners where it transitions to the rest of the cap.  There are some tricks for this.  I see so many that are just rounded and they look pretty bad to my eye. 

Anyways, good work and I'll send you a PM.

Thanks,
Jim

[45dash100]

45 dash,

You've done some good things with the modeling.  This isn't easy for sure.  I've come from a background of doing everything by hand to where machines do most of the work and I can tell you that it is far easier to do it by hand for the customizing you are working on.  I can help if you have any questions with this I can help.  Now, if the CAD stuff is your comfort and what you like to do, I understand.  There are some pretty tricky aspects to forming a nosecap well.  The biggest one is forming the groove and ending up with sharp corners where it transitions to the rest of the cap.  There are some tricks for this.  I see so many that are just rounded and they look pretty bad to my eye. 

Anyways, good work and I'll send you a PM.

Thanks,
Jim

Thanks Jim.  I'd agree modeling the full stock is certainly overkill, and it would be easier to do some of the simpler things without it.  Small bits like the nosecap are fast and easy, but the organic curves and such for the butt, comb, cheek-piece, and lock transitions get tricky fast. 

I just like to stretch my brain a bit, I've done quite a bit of complex CAD work for model Airplanes, but that's fallen off a bit as real life eats into hobby time.  I wanted to get some more practice in, as I've got some old guns in need of stocks that aren't sold anywhere.  For things like that on a hobby budget, you gotta do the work yourself, and  I'm more familiar with CAD than shaping things by hand.

I also agree on the transitions.  A clunky or rounded edge on the top where it meets the barrel, or on the bottom near the ramrod just don't look quite right.  I'd be interested to hear your tips there.  I'm thinking I might just need some extra material on the form in bottom spots so it can be filed to final shape.  Guess It all depends on if I try and do the printed dies, and how sharp of a corner I can get on the press.

[CooleyS]

I made a steel mandrel to shape a nose cap for a Kibler SMR. I incorporated a ramrod groove and the mandrel worked very nicely. I faked a copper rivet and instead made two small copper screws that attach from the inside to the nose cap. I didn’t use any epoxy or glue, the cap slides on tight but could be removed if needed. I’d be glad to send the mandrel out to you if it helps your project (just send it back!).

[elkhorne]

CooleyS,
If not too much trouble, could you post a couple of shots of your mandrel for the rest of us to see. There are a couple of master makers that have mad nose cap mandrels made from a foundry but they have been very price prohibitive, like several hundred dollars. We all need to make one for a specific rifle every now and then and a photo of one that has worked would be good to see and learn form. Thanks and great work!
elkhorne

[45dash100]

I made a steel mandrel to shape a nose cap for a Kibler SMR. I incorporated a ramrod groove and the mandrel worked very nicely. I faked a copper rivet and instead made two small copper screws that attach from the inside to the nose cap. I didn’t use any epoxy or glue, the cap slides on tight but could be removed if needed. I’d be glad to send the mandrel out to you if it helps your project (just send it back!).

That's a good looking cap, the lines are nice and clean.  I just got the 22 gauge steel I ordered, so I think I'll print out some dies tonight and see what happens tomorrow evening.  If plastic doesn't work out I might be interested in borrowing yours.

[Karl Kunkel]

I like those faux rivet copper screws.

[CooleyS]

Here are a couple of pictures of the mandrels.  To make the mandrels I first made card stock templates of the forestock profile at the nose and rear (depends on how long you make the nose cap).  I used solid steel stock and then began the job of cutting and filing out two mandrels until they matched the templates. The first two pictures are of the mandrel I made to get sharp edges on the ramrod groove. The next two pictures are of the second mandrel I used to achieve the actual shape of the nose cap. Overkill? Maybe, but the margin for error is small on the Kibler and after a couple of caps that I wasn’t happy with I decided to take the time to make mandrels and they worked quite good.

I’ll thank my dad for showing me the faux rivet thing…

[45dash100]

Here are a couple of pictures of the mandrels.  To make the mandrels I first made card stock templates of the forestock profile at the nose and rear (depends on how long you make the nose cap).  I used solid steel stock and then began the job of cutting and filing out two mandrels until they matched the templates. The first two pictures are of the mandrel I made to get sharp edges on the ramrod groove. The next two pictures are of the second mandrel I used to achieve the actual shape of the nose cap. Overkill? Maybe, but the margin for error is small on the Kibler and after a couple of caps that I wasn’t happy with I decided to take the time to make mandrels and they worked quite good.

I’ll thank my dad for showing me the faux rivet thing…

Those are certainly beefy.  I'm betting I may have to do a two stage thing with plastic.  22 gauge steel is thicker and stronger than I thought it was going to be, picked the size as that's what people were using with brass caps.  Gonna give it a shot with a single stage first though. 

Drew up a quick design after dinner, and got it printing. 





I'm using glass fiber filled nylon filament.  Some pretty strong stuff for plastic, but the steel seems tough.  Maybe I should anneal it just to make sure it's as soft as possible.

CooleyS, what gauge is your cap?

[CooleyS]

If I recall it was 24 gauge (.0239) and I annealed it often.
-Steve

[wolf]

Jim i love your SMR i have 2 i have done and about to order number 3, but i wish you would have offered a toe plate. i did the ones i built with them and they are an asset. but personally, i don't care for the nose cap on the SMR,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[45dash100]

If I recall it was 24 gauge (.0239) and I annealed it often.
-Steve

Thanks.  I think I will likely want to go thinner, that's 20% less steel, and should bend far more easily.  We'll just have to see what happens when I get off work this evening.

Got the dies printed.  I also decided last minute to make a pre-forming die, it'll take less load off the second stage.  The 22 gauge steel is in a computer controlled kiln at the moment.  Got it set to slow cool, and should be ready to take out and use this evening.  Overkill, but if you have access to the tool, might as well use it to make sure the steel is as soft as possible at the start.  I don't know how much mild steel sheet work hardens when it's manufactured, but I don't think it'll hurt anything.

Jim i love your SMR i have 2 i have done and about to order number 3, but i wish you would have offered a toe plate. i did the ones i built with them and they are an asset. but personally, i don't care for the nose cap on the SMR,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I've almost got the triggerguard and buttplate to where I want them.  Once they're close enough to the final finish I'm gonna tackle designing a toeplate patchbox.  I think I could probably hammer out hinges for something the size of a banana patchbox (watched several videos on making hinges), but the toeplate is pretty small.  Might try and find something I can repurpose.

I think I'll need to be careful about the release, don't want it catching on anything.  Maybe I'll do a slightly recessed button or something.

[45dash100]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, my magic toaster oven.  It can turn sheet metal into a pop tart.   



Heh, I think a used a bit too much heat.  On the bright side, the metal ablated quite evenly, and I ended up with some really soft .0260" sheet steel.  That took it down from about .0305", so uh, yeah, I meant to do that.....


Got the press dragged into the shop, and started with the preform dies.



It went really easy, no damage to either die, and the metal really filled in like it should.




Next up is the rolling dies.







Oops.  I messed up on my design here a bit.  It would have been helpful to have a taller center die, so I could press down evenly with more clearance.  Could probably have found a smaller load distribution piece for the top too.  No problem though, those edges need to be cleaned up anyway.  Also, I will probably just press out another cap with some modifications.




All in all, it worked very well, even though I didn't get sharp defined edges on the bottom.  The steel had basically no spring-back which is great.  I can slide the metal off of the center die with just a little bit of resistance.



I believe the sharp defined bottom edge can be achieved with a differently shaped preforming die set.

I just need to make sharp points like CooleyS's mandrel, and overbend the metal for the first stage.  Overbending won't be a problem, as I think the second roller stage dies will perfectly smooth things back out.

[Randall Steffy]

If you pre-bend your sheet metal in a brake or over the sharp jaw of a vise to 90° at the exact points where you are struggling to form sharp lines by the ramrod groove, in essence, to form a "U" with sharp corners, and then hand bend the "U" open, you now have the perfect stock to place in your die to finish the wrap to completion. This is one way to do it and I have great success with this approach.

[45dash100]

If you pre-bend your sheet metal in a brake or over the sharp jaw of a vise to 90° at the exact points where you are struggling to form sharp lines by the ramrod groove, in essence, to form a "U" with sharp corners, and then hand bend the "U" open, you now have the perfect stock to place in your die to finish the wrap to completion. This is one way to do it and I have great success with this approach.

That's a good idea.  I really need to get or make some flat steel jaws for my big vise.  The ones on it have some very rough serrations.  Great for typical repair stuff, no so great for gun parts.  Maybe I can have some success with a straight square punch die.  Make two 90's at once, then open by hand, and stick into the roller die thing.

I printed a set of the sharp preform jigs I alluded to in the previous post, and gave them a try.  It certainly worked better than the previous method, and I'd imagine I can make it look pretty good with a file.







The sharp corners of the sharp preforming jig did flatten a bit.  I printed them with cheap PETG plastic, not the fancy engineering grade stuff the rollers are made of.  I think the fancy material would probably deform also.  That's why the 90 degree jig might be a really good idea.  The 90's will have way more material supporting the edges than those sharp points.

Another option would be to reduce the curve of the ramrod groove, then quickly hog it out the rest of the way with an appropriately sized round file.  May need thicker metal for that.  I got a Woodsrunner kit in the mail yesterday, it came earlier than expected, and it's cap is quite thick (about .068-.070).  That'd be something like 14-15 gauge if it wasn't fully machined. 

I don't think I'd need to go that thick for the file in groove method, so it's possible.  I probably have some 18-20 gauge stuff in the scrap pile.  Would be interesting to see if thicker metal will bend as well with plastic dies.  With a reduced groove depth, it may be possible.

[Crow Choker]

My thoughts 45dash is that there is a few of us Kibler SMR owners out here that like the looks of a nosecap on a SMR that can't find a ready made cap to finish/install. I personally don't have the means to do what you are doing and frankly don't want to take the time to do so. You get all of the bugs worked out and a SMR nosecap that is fairly easy to form, well, there is a little extra source of income for ya. Possibly could make enough over a period of time to fund another rifle kit if the nosecaps are reasonable price. I'd buy one. Just sayin. 

[45dash100]

My thoughts 45dash is that there is a few of us Kibler SMR owners out here that like the looks of a nosecap on a SMR that can't find a ready made cap to finish/install. I personally don't have the means to do what you are doing and frankly don't want to take the time to do so. You get all of the bugs worked out and a SMR nosecap that is fairly easy to form, well, there is a little extra source of income for ya. Possibly could make enough over a period of time to fund another rifle kit if the nosecaps are reasonable price. I'd buy one. Just sayin. 

Sadly, I'm still young enough that I have to go to work everyday.  Would probably be easier to just work more overtime hours.  Maybe not as fun though.  I think forming the nose will probably be too time consuming to be able to make money, and still sell caps for prices people would pay.  Unless I get really fast at it.    

Hammered on the nose a bit this morning, and it went a lot easier than expected.  I'll finish forming it tonight when I get off work and post pictures.

Maybe I could just sell the jigs and people can form their own.  It took basically no effort from my press to form things, so it could be possible with a bench vise.  That's another thing to test.

[45dash100]

Forming the front went pretty well, though I did make a few mistakes.

The roller jig holds everything in place nicely.





The metal tends to bulge out around the side a bit, so I started using a punch to go around the outer edge, and to have more control when striking from the top.

While that worked, I really should have been using a brass punch.  I have several hanging right by the bench.  Oh well, this cap is just practice anyway.  I don't think I left quite enough material to contact the sides of the barrel as cleanly as I would like.



Some scratches left by the punch.









I don't think I'll do any more work on this one.  It turned out pretty ok for a first attempt, but I know I can do better.  I think I'd like to try again with the full thickness 22 gauge steel.  That will leave a bit more meat so I can clean things up better, and get everything looking how I want.  Will also make inletting the wood a bit more forgiving.

[PHolder]

I spent 30 years in the IT field.  I have always been fascinated by the making of 'stuff' and the ingenuity and engineering that goes into making it!!
Kudos

[45dash100]

I spent 30 years in the IT field.  I have always been fascinated by the making of 'stuff' and the ingenuity and engineering that goes into making it!!
Kudos

Thanks.  I'm the same way, and it's always fun to learn a new skill.



Didn't have as much time to work on things this weekend as I would have like, but I did at least complete a nosecap.  Unsure if I will use it as is, or make one more to try and get the best possible cap I can.

Used a chisel to try and move a bit more metal into the points.  Not sure I will do this again.  I was able to get things a bit better defined, but It's really hard to keep even punches, and I probably gave myself some extra cleanup work on the bottom side.





I did test bends with and without annealing, and both worked.  I was also able to do a good bend with just a bench vise.  Makes sense. You can crush plastic with a bench vise easy, but you obviously don't have to apply that much force, as the metal bends without crushing the plastic.

The steel does harden when hammering on it though.  Took this one to this point before I went and annealed it again.  Certainly makes it easier to keep wrinkles out as you're forming things.  Also, next time, I'll move even less metal.  I've been keeping way too much out of caution, but it's unnecessary.



A piece of square stock really does help when you need to clean up the front face.  You can hammer out most dents without the need to sand things.




Printed a file guide.  Since the wood will be so thing, I want to do as much shaping as possible before I need to do anything to the stock.  Doing the majority of the file work off the gun is a lot safer.






The picture is a bit blurry, but here's the cap mostly completed and on the barrel.  I will wait to clean up the top edge of the cap until I get it on the gun.  I'm hopeful there will be minimal work between the metal and stock to get a good clean fit.




Before I actually fit this to the gun, I may go and finish the CAD model first.  Will be easier to judge how long I want the cap to be, if I can tweak it on the fly in the CAD program.

[45dash100]

I've got some Toeplate Hinges ordered from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply.


They're a bit wide for the SMR, but hopefully thinning it down on either side won't make the hinges look weird.  At the very least, I can weld the hinges to another piece of metal and make a smaller door with metal on either side.

I'll also have a set of small hinges to copy if it comes down to needing to bend my own.

I plan on making another nose cap this Saturday.  I want to do as nice of a job as I can on it.  The last one came out pretty good, but I made some filing mistakes on the ramrod channel, and I want to refine the process.

Staining the stock is a good ways off, but I wanted to test the iron nitrate I've got with my heat gun (powerful but small re-flow solder gun).  Cut off a bit of curly maple from a board I was using for carving practice, and made a small 45 cal loading block.

Probably boring, but good for me to have a log, and some idea of what colors might do.

Bare Wood


Iron Nitrate Applied


Heat Applied


First coat of polymerized tung oil.  Looks a lot more red under this light.


Final block with two coats of oil.




The heat gun worked very well, and colored things up quite quickly.  I don't think it'l be an issue on the full rifle.  The digital temperature control should hopefully make it easy around any bits that might have a tendency to scorch. 

I can also see that this particular bit of maple came out with for more brown tones than I'd like for the gun.  It looks very good in person, and has the cool holographic shimmer effect that polished maple has, I would just like some more red tones.  Got some LMF stain coming that I plan to combine with the Iron Nitrate. 

Just need to come up with some doodads to make out of maple.  Maybe I'll make some nicer powder horn plugs, some of the ones I have are a bit rough and ugly.  Don't own a lathe, but I think a drill press can accomplish the task.

[Rolf]

I am very impressed with the 3D printing of your forming blocks and the results on your nose cap.
Would it be possible to print forming blocks for the cup of a spurred butt cap for a pistol?
Here is a link to a tutorial I did for spurred butt caps  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32410.0
I carved the forming blocks from hardwood.Printed forming blocks would save a pile of work. The blocks would have to be hard enough for hammer shaping of 2mm (0.08") brass sheet.
Please forgive the hijacking of your thread, but I'm very curious about whats possible.

Best regards
Rolf

[smallpatch]

45dash,
While I do get what you’re trying to do, I’m not sure of your reason why?
It’s pretty simple, and with a few tools, and some sheet brass, a guy can make that nose cap in under an hour.
I understand if you’re trying to build something you can use over and over again for manufacturing purposes. But for just one?

[45dash100]

I am very impressed with the 3D printing of your forming blocks and the results on your nose cap.
Would it be possible to print forming blocks for the cup of a spurred butt cap for a pistol?
Here is a link to a tutorial I did for spurred butt caps  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32410.0
I carved the forming blocks from hardwood.Printed forming blocks would save a pile of work. The blocks would have to be hard enough for hammer shaping of 2mm (0.08") brass sheet.
Please forgive the hijacking of your thread, but I'm very curious about whats possible.

Best regards
Rolf

No problem on the hijack, the reason I'm sharing this here is for feedback, positive and negative.  Also thought this might be able to benefit others.

Designing and printing the forms would be quite easy.  You might also be able to bend it all into shape with less steps.  The cool thing about printed parts, is you can make shapes not easily manufacturable in other ways.  You can also have forms that split into multiple pieces, making them easier to remove from shaped parts.

Whether or not plastic would hold up to the forces required for .08 brass sheet, I don't know.  I haven't worked with sheet brass much, but it looks like steel is more than two times harder than brass, so I doubt that thickness is an issue.  The plastic survived me hammering 90 degree bends into the front of the steel caps I made, and your design doesn't have any sharp edges.  I'd bet it would work out well.  Also, if you destroy a form after making a few caps, it's cheap and easy to just print another one.

I plan to eventually try this out for a rounded cap on a half stock block powder rifle.  It's a sidelock gun with all the makings of a longrifle, but I think it just escapes the date cutoff for me to talk about it on this forum.

45dash,
While I do get what you’re trying to do, I’m not sure of your reason why?
It’s pretty simple, and with a few tools, and some sheet brass, a guy can make that nose cap in under an hour.
I understand if you’re trying to build something you can use over and over again for manufacturing purposes. But for just one?

Quality, repeatability, and I can share the printable files.  I also have other projects that can benefit from the process. Also, I didn't want to hand shape a forming block for something needing this much precision.  I've looked at a ton of nosecaps made online.  Some are great, others not so much.

I can do a way better job this way, and that matters with everything being as small or as thin as it is here.  Also, most importantly for a hobby, it's fun!  Making a bunch of sawdust hand shaping a form that needs fractions of a millimeter of precision would be less fun.   

[45dash100]

Well, still not perfect, but much better than the others.  Probably wasted a bit of time polishing it to this degree before fitting, but I really wanted to see what it would look like all tidied up.  I think it should look pretty good once the metal is finished.  Hopefully it fits the wood well.  I think I'll rivet it on, or at the least, make fake ones.










Fitting it to the wood will have to happen another day.  In the meantime, I'm trying to decide what to do about the area behind the cheekpiece.   The curl kinda dies away there, and I think it could use something to tie everything together.

Obvious answer is an inlay of some sort.  I've never tried engraving anything though, so I'm considering wire inlay in the form of a more conventional southern inlay.  I think it'd be a good way to get some detail and depth without needing to engrave an expensive piece of silver.  I'll tackle that kind of thing after a bunch of practice.

I think an anthropomorphized crescent moon would be cool, if I can come up with a design that looks good in wire.  Been watching videos, and reading about how to do it, and it doesn't look all that difficult.  Relative to relief carving or engraving anyway.  I'll just need to practice on scrap wood first.

Forgive the sharpie on the buttplate.  I need to clean it off.  Makes it look like I have some terrible gaps.

[ScottH]

Nose cap looks good! And it looks like you did good work fitting the butt plate as well.