Customizing a Kibler SMR

[45dash100]

So, I've recently restarted a Lancasterish build, but it's been pretty much impossible to not eyeball Kibler's stuff.  Couldn't resist ordering one.  Grabbed a B stock 45 cal.  It's Extra Fancy maple but was discounted for a filled hole.  Doesn't bother me any, I like the added character.






Figured it'd be really nice to have a high quality gun in my hands that I can dig into, and have a standard to aim for.  Got the gun last Thursday, and got it mostly assembled over the weekend in between waiting for stuff to dry on the Lancaster.


It went very well, with only a few hiccups.  Needed to remove hardly anything for the barrel to drop in.  Just a bit around the plug, and some fuzzies in the channel.  I think the curl was giving the CNC machine fits.  A good problem to have.

Lock fits like a glove, and took zero fitting.

Triggerguard was a bit of a problem, it was twisted in several directions, and was not easy to get it to match up with the inlets.  Was way off from the start.  Took me several hours with a hammer, vise, and various wrenches and prybars to get it to bend in the right spots.  Got it in the end though, it fits right in now.

Buttplate install was pretty smooth.  Just took my time with inlet black (heh, sharpie) to get a good fit.  Only issue was the top screwholes weren't centered, they were far enough off that the buttplate was overhanging quite a bit on one side.  No big deal, did some searching here on the forums, and saw various plug filling techniques.  Made a plug from some dowels, and glued them in.  Easy.

All the pinning, and inletting of small parts went smooth.  Now I'm just sanding out machine marks and planning for some customizations.


There's several things I'd like to add to the gun, and a lot of them will require some drawing which I'm terrible at.  I'd like to do some minimal carving, maybe add a patchbox and steel nosecap.  Not sure If I want to cover up the nice wood though. Silver wire inlay would also be cool if kept simple.  I've been looking at original guns for the past few months, though there are still some books I'd like to track down.  I don't want to get too far away from what would have been done at the time, though I little stretching won't bug me.


Since I'm terrible at freehand drawing, I'm turning to the computer.  I plan to model the entire stock in Fusion 360 so that I can play with various additions and see how they look.  Will also be very handy if I decide to make a nosecap.

Here's my quick and dirty progress.  I want to match the lines as close as possible, so that any additions I draw on the computer will be an accurate representation.  It's been a while since I've modeled such complex curves, but things are coming along.  The comb needs a little work, and the lock area needs a lot of cleaning up.  However, it is coming together.






The base model is the tricky part.  Once it's done, I'll be able to try as many different carving/engraving/inlay bits as I want with minimal effort.

[smallpatch]

Nice idea, but the wrong rifle for carving. Inlays yes, carving no.

[45dash100]

Nice idea, but the wrong rifle for carving. Inlays yes, carving no.

Sure, complex carving wouldn't fit, however a little detail around the front of the comb, or on the cheekrest seem to show up on some later Carolina rifles, as well as stuff in Tennessee. 

Of course, that's why the CAD is cool.  I can draw something up, and if It's blasphemy no harm has been made to any real wood.   


Been thinking about sheet metal for the nosecap.  If I've got a good model, I can quickly make a 3D printed metal forming jig, and have a really nice starting point.  There's not a lot of wood, so precision will be key.

[Crow Choker]

Be interested if, in, and how you would do a sheet metal iron nosecap '45dash100'. I have a SMR kit that I hope to be starting on very soon and would like to install a nosecap. Brass is out due to the rest of the SMR being iron. I've seen some pictures of SMR's with an iron and finished cap and like the look. W/O a nose cap IMO it looks like something is missing. Due to the thinness of the of the wood on a SMR its tricky but can be done. I know, most originals didn't and if so, Jim Kibler would have done so with his version, but I don't always stay on the beaten path when it comes to originality. I've mentally ran through alot of ways to do it to avoid wood damage but yet to have a secure cap. If anyone else has installed a nosecap on a Kibler SMR successfully I'd be interested in how you did it, maybe even found one to modify.

[smylee grouch]

I might be wrong but if I were to carve a rifle or install a nose cap I would have done it before I finished and stained the stock. 

[Tim Crosby]

Be interested if, in, and how you would do a sheet metal iron nosecap '45dash100'. I have a SMR kit that I hope to be starting on very soon and would like to install a nosecap. Brass is out due to the rest of the SMR being iron. I've seen some pictures of SMR's with an iron and finished cap and like the look. W/O a nose cap IMO it looks like something is missing. Due to the thinness of the of the wood on a SMR its tricky but can be done. I know, most originals didn't and if so, Jim Kibler would have done so with his version, but I don't always stay on the beaten path when it comes to originality. I've mentally ran through alot of ways to do it to avoid wood damage but yet to have a secure cap. If anyone else has installed a nosecap on a Kibler SMR successfully I'd be interested in how you did it, maybe even found one to modify.

 Although this one is brass the procedure may help.

  Tim C.

  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg18#msg18

[45dash100]

Be interested if, in, and how you would do a sheet metal iron nosecap '45dash100'. I have a SMR kit that I hope to be starting on very soon and would like to install a nosecap. Brass is out due to the rest of the SMR being iron. I've seen some pictures of SMR's with an iron and finished cap and like the look. W/O a nose cap IMO it looks like something is missing. Due to the thinness of the of the wood on a SMR its tricky but can be done. I know, most originals didn't and if so, Jim Kibler would have done so with his version, but I don't always stay on the beaten path when it comes to originality. I've mentally ran through alot of ways to do it to avoid wood damage but yet to have a secure cap. If anyone else has installed a nosecap on a Kibler SMR successfully I'd be interested in how you did it, maybe even found one to modify.

Will have to decide if I'm going to do it once I get to drawing the front of the gun.  It really is quite thin.

Check out this video:



Would be fun to try this, even if I don't actually attach the cap in the end.  I've got an old bottlejack shop press that should do the job.  If it works, it would be handy for lots of things.  I could also share the STL, then anyone with a press could quickly print a set of dies and form their own.

I might be wrong but if I were to carve a rifle or install a nose cap I would have done it before I finished and stained the stock. 

I must have been unclear in my first post or something, no staining has occured.  My gun has had a bit of sanding done to remove machine marks, but still needs more before I'm at the point of staining.

Here's how it sits at the moment.



Once I finish 3d modeling the stock, I'll probably at least do the buttplate and triggerguard.  Those add so much to the flow of the rifle that they're needed for deciding decoration.  Maybe I'll do the lock too.  Especially if I want to do a little engraving.

[45dash100]

Although this one is brass the procedure may help.

  Tim C.

  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9.msg18#msg18

That's a good tutorial.  Wonder if the front face can be hammer formed like that with steel.  Figured I'd have to tig a patch on, or learn to silver solder.

Could probably do it with the press, but would likely require multiple stages of dies.

[Dennis Glazener]

Been thinking about sheet metal for the nosecap.  If I've got a good model, I can quickly make a 3D printed metal forming jig, and have a really nice starting point.  There's not a lot of wood, so precision will be key.

This one is in our tutorial section with photos
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24785.0
No CAD  needed this one it has a RR groove, but most SMR's did not, just use the a proper round wood template with 2 radiator hose clamps to bend the metal around the template, square the end and solder the oversize flat  front piece on, then file off the excess. I make brass or mild steel nose caps this way. Slip on the forearm (without barrel in place) then scribe the bottom of the octagon barrel then cut and file the cap to fit the bottom of the barrel. Properly soldered it looks like a one piece cap. Easy once you get the hang of it.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Yes mild steel can be hammer forged also on 2 piece, flat front need not be tight welded, soft solder or brazed is plenty strong enough.

You might want to practice on a fore end other than a Kibler SMR, you have little wood to work with on the Kibler and if you cut a little too much wood off the fore end can easily be broken off the stock! I cheated on my first one and glued it on with JB Weld to help strengthen the wood.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Be interested if, in, and how you would do a sheet metal iron nosecap '45dash100'. I have a SMR kit that I hope to be starting on very soon and would like to install a nosecap. Brass is out due to the rest of the SMR being iron. I've seen some pictures of SMR's with an iron and finished cap and like the look. W/O a nose cap IMO it looks like something is missing. Due to the thinness of the of the wood on a SMR its tricky but can be done. I know, most originals didn't and if so, Jim Kibler would have done so with his version, but I don't always stay on the beaten path when it comes to originality. I've mentally ran through alot of ways to do it to avoid wood damage but yet to have a secure cap. If anyone else has installed a nosecap on a Kibler SMR successfully I'd be interested in how you did it, maybe even found one to modify.

I used JB Weld  (also a copper rivet to look traditional) to glue the finished cap to the wood let dry a couple of days and file off excess. It worked great for the 2 or 3 yrs before I sold the rife, I assume it lasted for the buyer as well. Plus I made the nose cap a loose fit so it released from the barrel easily when removing barrel from the stock.
Dennis

[45dash100]

Been thinking about sheet metal for the nosecap.  If I've got a good model, I can quickly make a 3D printed metal forming jig, and have a really nice starting point.  There's not a lot of wood, so precision will be key.

This one is in our tutorial section with photos
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24785.0
No CAD  needed this one it has a RR groove, but most SMR's did not, just use the a proper round wood template with 2 radiator hose clamps to bend the metal around the template, square the end and solder the oversize flat  front piece on, then file off the excess. I make brass or mild steel nose caps this way. Slip on the forearm (without barrel in place) then scribe the bottom of the octagon barrel then cut and file the cap to fit the bottom of the barrel. Properly soldered it looks like a one piece cap. Easy once you get the hang of it.
Dennis

Yep, you can do it without CAD.  I will still use it in this case though, it'l only take a few minutes to draw the tip of the stock.  A ramrod groove will be required, there's just no room to not have one.  Also, the forend flares out.  The stock is wider at the tip than a couple inches back.  It's those little details that make this gun so awesome, the lines are great, and I don't want to mess up the flow.

Once it's drawn, printing out a template, or making a die will go 10 times faster than making a template out of wood. 

I'm a farmer, we take any shortcut we can get.     At least for a gun that's already mostly CNC machined.  If you think about it, I'm just using the tools that were used at the time this gun was created.   


If I do make a cap, I think it'd be best to use some JB weld like you did on yours.  It's that or remove a bit of wood from the barrel channel and install some metal or carbon strips to beef things up.

ETA:

Here's a pic of the tip of the stock for reference.  Need to sand out the fuzzies from the ramrod channel next.   

[oldtravler61]

  Sharp tools would of avoided that. When you start seeing chatter it's time to change your cutter.

[45dash100]

  Sharp tools would of avoided that. When you start seeing chatter it's time to change your cutter.

That's quite possible.  Though I could see it being almost unfeasible to keep up with some types of wood.  It doesn't look it in this picture as I've sanded the outside already and haven't removed the dust, but it's quite curly.   Seemed like the curl was giving the machine fits.  I have a homemade CNC router I use for RC and models, and while I don't do much profile machining, different pieces of wood can have wildly different machined surfaces even with a sharp tool.

I'm very curious how often they have to swap cutters, and also how in the world they can hold the forend steady enough to machine.  Must be strategically leaving wood to keep it stiff or something.  It's impressive.  Anyway, that's probably mostly academic, as the channel will clean up really quick.


CNC stuff aside, I took a little time to draw up the forend and what it would look like after filing down to fit a cap.  Here's a few renders.

The unmolested version:



Here it is with .040" removed:




And here's a cap.



Slightly more material would need to be removed from the tip as it flares out, and is narrower at the back of the cap.  But I think it's all perfectly doable.  Don't know how much clearance I'm going to need for the cap, fortunately that's easy to measure and test once I get one formed.  I'd hope 22 gauge (.0299") steel would work.  I've got some coming, and I'll give it a shot.

In the meantime, I can draw up a printable jig for the press or bench vise, or just 3D print a template and hammer the sheet around it.

[Crow Choker]

Looks good 45dash, but there has to be some source that a nosecap can be purchased that fits or that would require minor fitting is available. Grischi sent me a PM on how he did his by modifying a nosecap he bought from Track of the Wolf. Looks promising.

[oldtravler61]

  I made one out of brass first to form fit. Then I made one out of sheet metal to copy the brass one. Worked out very well. But I'm technically
challenged. So it's the old hammer and fit method.....lol

[Crow Choker]

If push would come to a lethal shove, I could form one. Do have the ability as I've made/fabricated alot of metal this and that over the last five decades, but I just as soon be lazy and buy something that will fit or needs very little fitting. Guess this attitude goes against alot/most of the idea of doing yerself here on the forum, but since the SMR is basically a minor fitting kit and all you do is finish and put together, guess might as well just keep it that way. Not the right attitude, but don't want to spend the time hammering out a cap unless need be.

[45dash100]

If push would come to a lethal shove, I could form one. Do have the ability as I've made/fabricated alot of metal this and that over the last five decades, but I just as soon be lazy and buy something that will fit or needs very little fitting. Guess this attitude goes against alot/most of the idea of doing yerself here on the forum, but since the SMR is basically a minor fitting kit and all you do is finish and put together, guess might as well just keep it that way. Not the right attitude, but don't want to spend the time hammering out a cap unless need be.

Not a terrible attitude to have for the gun in question.  I want to make my own on this so that I can get the best lines possible.  A lot of caps I see don't flow well, and sometimes modifying something can be almost more work.  If you can find a good shortcut, nothing wrong with taking it though.

Also, I want to see how the 3D printed forming dies do.  If it works well, I have other projects that can benefit.  Could also probably quickly produce a batch to sell if I end up having the time or inclination.  Probably less likely, I have to many projects to finish.  We'll see how it goes when I get some sheet metal to play with next week.


I'm currently working on the metal parts, getting rid of casting marks and blemishes in preparation for final finishing.  The final bit can wait until the stock is nearly done.

Been trying to research oddball patchboxes.  I don't really want to cover up the wood on this one, so have been looking for examples of buttplate and toeplate boxes.  The toeplate stuff is pretty cool, and I may just go that way.  I've heard that there were some guns with storage accessible from the buttplate, but haven't been able to find pictures yet.

I'd really like to have someplace to stick a spare flint, a cleaning jag, and maybe ball/patch and powder charge for a single shot.

[mgbruch]

Could have made a hardwood form; and formed and soldered cap out of thin sheet iron in less time than it took to do all that.  Hands on.  Old school.

There are plenty of photos, on this forum, of Kibler Southern Mountain guns that have nose caps added.

 

[45dash100]

Could have made a hardwood form; and formed and soldered cap out of thin sheet iron in less time than it took to do all that.  Hands on.  Old school.

Not even close.  I probably only spent 10-15 minutes measuring the nose and drawing up the CAD models and taking a few renders.  It would take me just as long write those measurements on a piece of paper, and then find a suitable piece of wood and transfer them over.  If I had a suitable piece of hardwood lying around.

That doesn't even get in to the amount of time it would likely take me to make an accurate model out of wood with some files.  And then you've got to consider post processing time.  How much longer would it take me to hammer, and then fit and smooth said cap after it was finished?  Almost certainly longer than an exactly formed piece of metal from a press.  This method will get me a more accurate, faster made part than I could do by hand.  The parts involved are just too delicate, and the tolerances too tight for me to win a race against myself old school.

Fortunately, I don't need to race myself here.  I'm doing this all for fun afterall.    

I can track my time spent on the cap once I finally decide if I'll make one or not.  Too busy right now with metal cleanup.

[elkhorne]

45dash100,
You talked about adding some embellishments to the Kibler SMR. I realize the particular original rifle that Jim used for an example for his SMR was a very plain rifle and had no decoration. Most originals like this were the same.This not to say that someone CAN’T make this into an interesting rifle created for a wealthy tobacco plantation owner, or noted military figure, or doctor for a story behind it.
Some may say this is heresy but I attended an engraving and carving class with John Schipper’s at Conner Prairie a couple of years ago. He had some beautiful examples of his work and had done an interesting patch box on one. I asked him if he could similarly do my Kibler SMR that I had just not had time to start and the rest is history. The following are a few photos of Mr. Schipper’s work and it is amazing. What an artisan and great teacher! Interestingly I live in Louisiana know for its gators. I was surprised with a neat patchbox that resembles a folklore gator’s profile. Anyway, here are some photos of the finished rifle. Hope you enjoy what can be done.

[Crow Choker]

Nice rifle elkhorne, really sets off that SMR.

[JEH]

I have the twin to that gun also done by Mr. Schippers. Bought it from him at the CLA show 3 or 4 years ago

[flinchrocket]

I’m planning on making one of these entry thimbles for my wife’s SMR.

[45dash100]

45dash100,
You talked about adding some embellishments to the Kibler SMR. I realize the particular original rifle that Jim used for an example for his SMR was a very plain rifle and had no decoration. Most originals like this were the same.This not to say that someone CAN’T make this into an interesting rifle created for a wealthy tobacco plantation owner, or noted military figure, or doctor for a story behind it.
Some may say this is heresy but I attended an engraving and carving class with John Schipper’s at Conner Prairie a couple of years ago. He had some beautiful examples of his work and had done an interesting patch box on one. I asked him if he could similarly do my Kibler SMR that I had just not had time to start and the rest is history. The following are a few photos of Mr. Schipper’s work and it is amazing. What an artisan and great teacher! Interestingly I live in Louisiana know for its gators. I was surprised with a neat patchbox that resembles a folklore gator’s profile. Anyway, here are some photos of the finished rifle. Hope you enjoy what can be done.

That's a pretty awesome rifle.  I won't be going that far with mine for sure, but it's neat to see.  I like all the engraving work and the accents added to the barrel and buttplate.

I’m planning on making one of these entry thimbles for my wife’s SMR.

Hadn't thought of doing anything to the thimbles other than maybe a bit of shaping.  That's cool.