Author Topic: 1:22 Twist Conical experience  (Read 1414 times)

Offline mclee

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
1:22 Twist Conical experience
« on: September 17, 2023, 03:55:34 AM »
Picked up a new to me Jones and Garner "Grand Rifle". 50 cal, 42" barrel with roughly 1:22 twist. I'm messing around with the stock of bullets and powder I have on hand and I'm shooting fairly well with 75 gr of Black and a 275 gr T/C Maxi Hunter.
  Primary use for this rifle is accurate hunting. Knowing that all rifles eat differently I was wondering if anyone had a bullet they had good experience with before I buy blindly and hope for the best. Right now I'm grouping about 2-3" at 100 yards but I get the feeling this rifle can shoot better than I can and I'd like to feed it better.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9444
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2023, 04:05:32 AM »
The old 50-70 bullet 515141 sizes to LAND diameter and lubricated would be a good choice.Check the land diameter and if it's .500 then size the bullet to .500 or .5005 and start with 70 grains of 3fg.There are other 50 caliber bullets but this one I have used.It weighed about 450 grains.

Bob Roller

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15270
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2023, 07:56:20 AM »
There are some .500 cal. Bullet mould for the. 500 S&W handgun on the market  however 22" is a really fast twist for .50 calibre. That ROT will stabilize a 700gr. bullet. I am surprised it shows well with such a light bullet. (275gr.)
I would search what bullet moulds are available at Buffalo Arms in the .500" first  before looking at larger diameter bullets. Both my Lyman #515141 & Lee moulds casting that same .50/70 bullet  cast .515" in pure or almost pure lead. That's a lot of sizing down and distortion will happen if the greasy grooves are not filled first. It might be too much anyway. I would search for a closer to
500" dia. first.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9805
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2023, 10:59:39 PM »
Picked up a new to me Jones and Garner "Grand Rifle". 50 cal, 42" barrel with roughly 1:22 twist. I'm messing around with the stock of bullets and powder I have on hand and I'm shooting fairly well with 75 gr of Black and a 275 gr T/C Maxi Hunter.
  Primary use for this rifle is accurate hunting. Knowing that all rifles eat differently I was wondering if anyone had a bullet they had good experience with before I buy blindly and hope for the best. Right now I'm grouping about 2-3" at 100 yards but I get the feeling this rifle can shoot better than I can and I'd like to feed it better.

It will stabilze anything up to 800 grains or so. But if you must do this the below recommended 50-70 bullet sized to fit should work. Hunting? Conicals were pretty much discarded as ML hunting projectiles, no matter what Ned Roberts says. In order to get a 450-500 grain bullet to decent velocity (lighter bullets have little advantage over a RB) for a flat trajectory the recoil will be an issue. Since the longer the barrel time the more impotant uniform holding becomes. And this goes for EVERYTHING even HV modern stuff.  2-3” at 100 if the recoil us heavy may be all you are gonna get. When its on at 100 where is it at 50? And unless you have a range finder and an adjustable tang sight shots past 100 with a high trajectory load is very risky. Depending on the lenght of the 275 gr you can probably get by with a 60 or 70” twist if the grooves are under .006” deep. ALSO bullet lube can be a factor. Hard lubes can adhere to the bullet and unbalance it. SPG will work fine especially if pan lubed. I would also recommend a thin card wad, like the cardboard in a cereal box, that is slightly over groove diameter with the bullet base carefully wiped of any lube is a good idea. Black powder will put divots in the bullet base otherwise. You can get a wad punch from a supplier like Buffalo Arms.

The Maxi-Ball and the “improved” Maxi-Hunter came about with the mass produced MLs of the late 1960s and early 70s. This has evolved into the plastic saboted pistol bullets. People buy them for a couple of reasons. First when they first came out and the T-C and others were buying ADVERTISING in mags like Guns and Ammo the gun writers, who were generally completely ignorant, started telling people that a round ball would not kill anything since it had such a low ballistic coeffcient. This of course is complete buffalo bagels otherwise the long hunters would have been wasting their time and Lewis and Clark starved before getting to the falls of the Missouri. But since the gun writers said so it HAD to be true? Right?  In my experience, unless a very heavy bone is encountered a 490-530 RB will give about 30” of penetration on a deer, or pass through on lung shots even at 800 fps. Yes I have shot a couple of critters with a 6” 50 cal belt pistol that made 800 fps one was a follow up on a buck that was still alive as I approached. Gave about 20-25 in of penetration from shoulder (missed the bone) to offside hide at the diaphragm. The other was an antelope with a broken jaw from a modern hunter I came across after the fact. Side to side pass through and a plume of dirt in the sage brush beyond. SO big I though I had missed. I also shot a MD doe with a 54 pistol with a velocity over 1000 that broke the humerus (many pieces), took the top of the heart out and lodged under the far side hide. This was about 25 yard shot.
I did, back in the mid-late 1970s, test a 54 maxi-ball vs a RB on a baffle-board. The Maxi-Penetrates about 30% farther than the RB. But since the 54 RB would pretty much shoot through a deer from chest to rump why do I need more penetration? All I proved was that if you shoot a Maxi-Ball from a percussion you better buy a platinum lined nipple. Oh and that “naked” bullets in MLs can slide away from the powder in not carried muzzle up or at least level.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Online Daniel Coats

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1338
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2023, 12:52:43 AM »
If all else fails and you can't get it to shoot have it rebored to 54 caliber with a round ball twist
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline varsity07840

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2023, 01:22:39 AM »
Picked up a new to me Jones and Garner "Grand Rifle". 50 cal, 42" barrel with roughly 1:22 twist. I'm messing around with the stock of bullets and powder I have on hand and I'm shooting fairly well with 75 gr of Black and a 275 gr T/C Maxi Hunter.
  Primary use for this rifle is accurate hunting. Knowing that all rifles eat differently I was wondering if anyone had a bullet they had good experience with before I buy blindly and hope for the best. Right now I'm grouping about 2-3" at 100 yards but I get the feeling this rifle can shoot better than I can and I'd like to feed it better.

What's wrong with that group? That's certainly hunting accuracy and more.

Offline mclee

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2023, 04:18:24 AM »
In short, I'm an accuracy geek. I used to shoot Benchrest a while back and the bug stuck. I'd just like to see how tight I could get her to go. Lots of ideas here and I'll ponder. I haven't swaged it yet but it's on the list to do. I'm mainly hunting Elk in the Rockies and ranges are from 20 feet to 200 yards so shooting a rainbow prolly won't fly.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 04:21:34 AM by mclee »

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9444
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2023, 05:18:40 PM »
More questions.WHO made that barrel and from what?Is it a flintlock or caplock?Bolster breech or drum and nipple.Long bullets are another
set of rules when muzzle loaders are involved.Show us a picture if possible.
Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9805
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2023, 07:14:46 PM »
In short, I'm an accuracy geek. I used to shoot Benchrest a while back and the bug stuck. I'd just like to see how tight I could get her to go. Lots of ideas here and I'll ponder. I haven't swaged it yet but it's on the list to do. I'm mainly hunting Elk in the Rockies and ranges are from 20 feet to 200 yards so shooting a rainbow prolly won't fly.

For 200 yard elk you need a Pedersoli Gibbs Short or LR  rifle and shoot something like a Lyman 457193 cast 1:40 alloy and weighed to 1 gr +- of nominal for that casting lot. You also need a range finder and EXPERIENCE to know where to set the sights (you need a good vernier rear and a windgauge at the front or rear) since at 200 yards 20 yards +- can make a difference.  Then you need to shoot a lot for maybe 6 months or a year at various ranges. Or limit shots to 100 or less. Then a 54 RB is just as good when put in the right place.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15270
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2023, 08:01:09 PM »
You may get the .50 working  but will need a better bullet than the 275gr. Something 450gr. To 500 would be world's better.
You may find that past 100yds. the current lightweight  bullets start gyrating around the point of aim due to the too-fast rate of twist for that bullet.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline mclee

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2023, 03:10:21 AM »
It's a swamped Getz barrel. S/N is #6 so its an early one. I just happen to know where there is an older Ideal 50/70 mold and I'm liking that idea to try first. I rana some 365-425 gr conical through and saw 4'-6" groups.
  I was in a bit of a rush to leave for an Elk hunt so once I felt it was acceptable with the 275 gr T/C's I called it good enough for today.
 I'm learning that there is a LOT to learn and I'm off and down the rabbit hole. I've been messing around with BP and guns in general for a living for 25+ years and everyday  I learn something new.

Offline RichG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2023, 03:25:24 AM »
I would suspect a 1 in 22" twist was designed for sabots loaded with jacketed pistol bullets,

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15270
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2023, 12:49:17 AM »
1-22" might just be designed for a 240 to 265gr. .44 (.429/.430") bullet in a plastic jacket, for sure.
Otherwise, is too fast for most .50 cal. bullets. Taylor's suppository rifle in .50 with 24" twist, shoots well to 1000 meters with a 600r. paper patched bullet
and 91gr. of Swiss.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12578
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2023, 08:00:11 PM »
I once bought a 32" long x 15/16" .45 cal. barrel from Numerich Arms that had a 1:22 twist rate.  I cut it into three lengths and made muzzleloading pistols from the barrels.  With 25 gr. 3Fg GOEX and a tightly patched .440" round ball, they would shoot cloverleaf groups at 25 meters from a rest.  I still have one of those barrels as a back up for my Hawken pistol which normally carries it's .60 cal barrel.  But the .45 cal barrel is a joy to shoot and very accurate and consistent, with round ball.  I have never shot cylindrical conoidal bullets from it.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Online Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2023, 12:13:07 AM »
I just started shooting a 50 with a 1-28 twist. Been shooting 450 and 500 grain slugs.

The 1-22 may stabilize a 600+ grain.

I am finding that accuracy come from a properly sized bullet. Not too tight, but not loose. and good lube!

https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/c/bullet-resizing-dies

accuratemolds.com

make some nice molds
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15270
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2023, 02:01:33 AM »
I had Accurate Moulds in the States make me a DC brass mould for my  .50, '76.
It's a beautiful mould.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 07:11:59 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online Bsharp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2023, 06:53:50 PM »
If you know your bore size, No Excuses make some great hunting bullets.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/
Get Close and Wack'em Hard!

Offline Steeltrap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 563
Re: 1:22 Twist Conical experience
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2023, 03:08:44 PM »
With 2”-3” accuracy at 100yds using 75grFF, IMHO you’re good to go. Check POI at 50 yards so you know that distance.

Those T/C projectiles are no longer made. I’ve been whitetail hunting for decades using the Hornady Pa Conical over 100gr FF with great success. You may want to try the Hornady’s using different charge weights. Plus the Conical cost is $0.30 each. Much less than the T/C’s.