Horst Auction JP Beck

[Jdbeck]

I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck.  I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed.  So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck.  It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this.  I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War.  To whom did he apprentice?  I have no idea.  There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out.  If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.

Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this.  A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.

I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course.  But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers.  Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture.  I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use.  All that was needed was something to do the job.

Well you may argue that, and it’s possible the are JP. But JP clearly kept a style in his hardware and his side plates were hand made, ever JP Beck I’ve examined had a different proportions to his side
Plate. They are all similar in design, and easily identified, but are too far off to be from castings. His butplate and triggerguard however are definitely likely casted.  It just seems odd for two guns feature almost identical carving but vastly different hardware. Especially when his hardware and design stayed constant for so long. Obviously no one knows and it’s all guess work. There’s definitely a connection between the guns without a doubt.

It’s an interesting thing to look at, I’d definitely love to see some other earlier Signed Becks, for my own experience.

[Avlrc]

Congratulations Al, you did good

[DaveM]

Looking intothe name Borgey - it seems that this is actually the Family commonly known later as Burkey (Burkey / Berkey / Borgey). There was a Christian Berkey in Bern Township, Berks County that was named as a son in his father’s will in 1763, and inherited some “smith’s tools”.  There was another Christian Borgey (aka Bergey) 1741-1819, who lived in Harleysville, Lower Salford Township, Montgomery County. I knew some Burkeys growing up in Berks, so it could very well be that a Berks Christian Berkey owned the gun pictured spelled borgey.

[utseabee]

I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck.  I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed.  So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck.  It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this.  I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War.  To whom did he apprentice?  I have no idea.  There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out.  If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.

Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this.  A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.

I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course.  But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers.  Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture.  I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use.  All that was needed was something to do the job.

    I have to agree with Eric on not putting too much stock into the furnishings on Beck's earliest rifles. If you look at RCA volume 2 (rifles 98-101), you will see three of the four rifles have one or more atypical furnishings for Beck. Whether he cast them ( which he clearly was capable of) himself or purchased them really doesn't matter to me as I think they looked at things much differently than we do today. Beck also seemed to stick to the earlier styles through out his career and often used wider butt plates into the later part of his career.
    Debnal, Congratulations on your purchase! You did well.

[debnal]

I appreciate all the comments on the Beck. I got the rifle for my bid, no premium, no taxes, just shipping. Horst auctions id a very good auction company. The only problem is that they do not get good guns very often. If only Morphy's, Rock Island and Poulin's were that way.
i have been a member of the KRA for 44 years and have had a lot of low end Kentuckies. This is the first great gun I have owned. It took a long time but I am thrilled.
Al

[Eric Kettenburg]

This is the first great gun I have owned.

Well, you've posted some pretty cool pieces here lo these many years, but one thing I can't argue about is just how great this rifle looks to be!  Very happy for you.

[debnal]

Eric,
I primarily collect identified Rev War guns. Pretty myopically focused. But this is the best rifle I have ever had.
Al

[sbowman]

IMHO, the best thing about your purchase is the fact that it is an "unmolested rifle".  rare indeed. On a side note, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Beck guns but when this rifle showed up it became the sixth documented rifle by J. P. with a whale tail patchbox that I'm aware of.

Steve

[sbowman]

I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck.  I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed.  So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck.  It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this.  I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War.  To whom did he apprentice?  I have no idea.  There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out.  If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.

Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this.  A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.

I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course.  But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers.  Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture.  I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use.  All that was needed was something to do the job.

Well you may argue that, and it’s possible the are JP. But JP clearly kept a style in his hardware and his side plates were hand made, ever JP Beck I’ve examined had a different proportions to his side
Plate. They are all similar in design, and easily identified, but are too far off to be from castings. His butplate and triggerguard however are definitely likely casted.  It just seems odd for two guns feature almost identical carving but vastly different hardware. Especially when his hardware and design stayed constant for so long. Obviously no one knows and it’s all guess work. There’s definitely a connection between the guns without a doubt.

It’s an interesting thing to look at, I’d definitely love to see some other earlier Signed Becks, for my own experience.

Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp.  I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.

Steve











 

[moseswhite]

Congrats on your purchase . I think it is a wonderful rifle that would be hard to upgrade !!

[jdm]

Al, It doesn't matter what year this was made . It is a grand rifle any of us here would love to  have.  Jim

[Eric Kettenburg]

Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp.  I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.

Steve

I'm not talking about 31 - I have not seen that one first hand, although given what George wrote about the markings, I suspect it actually is a JP Beck signature.  30 is not signed, but there is another rifle that I don't think has been published that is almost identical to 30 (including wire along box) and that too, like the Chrisdian-whatever rifle, is signed JP Beck.  And that one I have seen first-hand including the CG or CB rifle, both side by side.  I don't consider myself an expert on Beck as his style is not quite my obsessive interest, but I am firmly convinced at this point that all 4 rifles are Beck and are representative of his early career.  It would seem he clearly had some connection one way or another to Berks Co and likely the Reading area in particular.  Whether he was working for Hachen, or someone else in the area (as Dave M has pointed out frequently, there were a number of other guys working there too), he obviously picked up on that form or style early on before changing his style and sticking with the newer form as illustrated by this auction rifle for the rest of his life.

[Buck]

Eric,

Over the years I recall a story that W Haga, Hachen, Hawken (whatever) his Brother John Christian or John Christians father (of Hawken fame) and Beck all came over on the same boat from the old country  together (Switzerland). This was extensively researched by a gentleman by the name of Greg Adler (I think) whose wife was the 10th plus great grand daughter of JP Beck. That’s probably not entirely correct as I can’t find the emails and my memory isn’t as sharp as it used to be. The point to this is he claimed they all landed in Reading, worked for a time there and then dispersed from that point to their respective final destinations. So, to your point, Reading was the starting point (according to him). I would also add that he had the name of the ship and claimed to have a copy of the manifest which bore the name of the three. He had planned on writing a book, unfortunately his health took a turn for the worst and I lost contact with him.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

I've never heard that, but it should be somewhat easy to verify via the palatine ship lists and pretty much all of them, or most of them, are online now in various places.  Not just ancestry, which I do not trust unless verified.  There used to be a site called 'the palatine project' that also was involved very seriously with the ship lists but I haven't checked it out in couple of years now.  And there were some other sites also that I have bookmarked but haven't visited in a while - will have to look into this.  Possibly JDBeck here has some info on this?

JP would have been considerably younger than the Hachens.  I don't know enough about him to know whether he was born here or was brought here as a child but frankly that doesn't matter much in this case.  the interesting point of reasearch would be to figure out with whom he may have apprenticed, because as far as I'm concerned, he clearly was initially working in the Reading style with his own twist so it would seem to be indicative of an apprenticeship or journeyman time somewhere in or around Reading.  The Christian-whatever rifle and 30/31, and the added piece that I handled, are all very Berks but at that same time very unique.  I don't look at them as apprentice pieces, more likely journeyman level pieces as they are all exttremely comptetent.  None of them were his first rodeo!

[sbowman]

Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp.  I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.

Steve

I'm not talking about 31 - I have not seen that one first hand, although given what George wrote about the markings, I suspect it actually is a JP Beck signature.  30 is not signed, but there is another rifle that I don't think has been published that is almost identical to 30 (including wire along box) and that too, like the Chrisdian-whatever rifle, is signed JP Beck.  And that one I have seen first-hand including the CG or CB rifle, both side by side.  I don't consider myself an expert on Beck as his style is not quite my obsessive interest, but I am firmly convinced at this point that all 4 rifles are Beck and are representative of his early career.  It would seem he clearly had some connection one way or another to Berks Co and likely the Reading area in particular.  Whether he was working for Hachen, or someone else in the area (as Dave M has pointed out frequently, there were a number of other guys working there too), he obviously picked up on that form or style early on before changing his style and sticking with the newer form as illustrated by this auction rifle for the rest of his life.

     Good deal, now we know there are four rifles most likely built by J. P. that clearly demonstrate his connection to the Berks co/ Reading area. when I saw the C. G.  rifle come up for auction a few years ago I thought "No Way" just more hype to sell a rifle for top bucks and probably a restock. Then cruising thru my RCA books began to have my doubts when I was studying the Reading section and spied the similarities on 30 and 31. I was actually gonna throw it out on this forum for discussion at some point until this thread came up, no need now. The fact that you have had your grubby hands-LOL on two of the four rifles certainly clears things up in my mind. I don't get a chance to get my grubby hands on many old rifles here in Indiana-LOL

     Buck, Eric, The Beck who may have come over with Haga would have to have been J. P's father as J. P. was born in 1751 in Lebanon. Also could have been an entirely differnt person named Beck for that matter.  If a researcher(J. D. here's a good project for you were to confirm that ship manifest Buck mentions it would go along way in connecting J. P. to Haga as a likely suspect for apprentice or journeyman.

Steve

[Buck]

Steve / Eric,

Again, this was 12 years ago and unfortunately I don’t have the communications or the memory to recall the complete discussion.

Buck

[Jdbeck]

Yeah I know Greg Allard, we spoke at length when I was doing my research for the website, sadly his time is dedicated to the care of his wife.

JP Becks father was Johan Christian Heinrich Beck who came over
On the ship “The dragon” in 1749. He purchased land in Lebanon in 1762. And we know JP was in the Myerstown area in 1766 due to his wedding/ church records.

Greg confirmed this, I confirmed this, and Van Pitman all independent of each others research.

I don’t see any Reading names…. But this is interesting, I’m here to learn after all, and share😝




That’s awesome to learn there’s another Reading rifle. Honestly it would be beneficial to get a group of these guns together and be studied.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation.  So maybe some others here will chime in with more info.  I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there.  Unless there were two JP Becks?    (I jest, but at the same time...  )

[Jdbeck]

I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation.  So maybe some others here will chime in with more info.  I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there.  Unless there were two JP Becks?    (I jest, but at the same time...  )

Yeah the Chrisdian gun features all his hardware and patchbox hinge. So if there’s another—that’s a smoking gun, that could include the other similar rifles. It’s interesting, I expect more of this mystery to be solved in due time.

I would like to compare that Berks unsigned with John Groffs rifle:





If that rifle is a JP Beck, that leads me to think of a new connection: A lot of similarities between these two rifles— definitely a connection between Groff and Beck in my opinion. Both patch boxes feature wire inlay along the door with brass studs, also the  Groff hinge is filed, in a manner similar to JP. Also Groffs carving is interesting to look at in this context, and two lines cut into a 5 in buttplate, similar to Beck. Groff was neighbors with Haga / Hachen..  Possible Apprentice/ Master relationship?

During the War JP was repairing arms for the Committee of Safety, he would have handled a plethora of Charlevilles, Brown Bess’ and  fusils’. Which could explain his change of architecture to a more straight military profile into his stocks. Also explains his Fowler’s featuring all the French hardware.

[sbowman]

I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation.  So maybe some others here will chime in with more info.  I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there.  Unless there were two JP Becks?    (I jest, but at the same time...  )

Eric, there were actually three JP Becks, , The other two were father and son and lived in Bethel township,now a part of Lebanon Co, but in Dauphin Co at that time. NO relation though, they were Moravian farmers.
JD, thanks for posting the manifest, looks like Wolfgang "missed the boat" so nothing there connecting him to the Becks. Still doesn't rule him out though. There is a connection in that the Becks, and our mister Haga were reformed Lutherans though of different congregations. Interesting you threw Graff into the mix, he's a real potential candidate based on your comments as master to JP. And yes, it would be cool to get the guns with the reading look together, Heck I'd settle for handling just one, I'would even bring my white gloves--LOL

Steve

[eastwind]

I’m not sure where the “rumor” came from that Beck was on the same ship as Wolfgang Haga/Hagen – but all sources of ship’s registers show Haga on the ship, Sandwich arriving Philadelphia in November 1750. Beck arrived in Philadelphia on the Dragon as JD Beck says, about 2 years before Haga. Although Haga settled quickly – his shop blew up in 1752- it appears Beck may have been in America two years before Haga.
Unfortunately, we have no certain record of where Beck first settled and since Haga came from Switzerland and Beck from Germany it seems they would not have known each other until getting to America – if then.
By the way, Benedict Imhoff, a gunsmith from Switzerland was on the same ship as Haga. Imhoff is shown as an early gunsmith in Reading and later in Womelsdorf before Bonewitz.
   As to the caption in the RevWar book, Groff, who is usually referred to as Graef in Reading records was much younger than Haga and he is more often shown as a locksmith than a gunsmith, and I found no evidence of either Haga or Graef ever working in Exeter, which I doubt was even settled in the 1750s. And they were not buried in the same cemetery, albeit they practiced in Lutheran churches and I’m not clear why Shreit is out-of-hand mentioned in the same caption, who owned property in Cumru Township, not Crum Township.
This so-called Graef rifle in the book is one of 5 or 6 very similar rifles using wire inlay and plain two-piece patchbox like #30-31, with very simple carving behind the cheekpiece. One is now in The Metropolitan Museum NY. I say “so-called” Graef because I know of no verifiable evidence to show a Graef, Graff or even a Groff made these rifles, although they sure look like Reading rifles. It is a personal opinion that Graef translates to Groff and I'd question that interpretation, given the dominance of the name, Groff around every "dutchy" corner in Berks County.
   And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.
Patrick Hornberger

[spgordon]

And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.

I look forward to reading this article! And I'll be interested in how it makes sense of receipts such as this, in which the English speakers use "Haga" but the gunsmith himself signs, clearly, "Wolfgang Hachen."

[Jdbeck]

I’m not sure where the “rumor” came from that Beck was on the same ship as Wolfgang Haga/Hagen – but all sources of ship’s registers show Haga on the ship, Sandwich arriving Philadelphia in November 1750. Beck arrived in Philadelphia on the Dragon as JD Beck says, about 2 years before Haga. Although Haga settled quickly – his shop blew up in 1752- it appears Beck may have been in America two years before Haga.
Unfortunately, we have no certain record of where Beck first settled and since Haga came from Switzerland and Beck from Germany it seems they would not have known each other until getting to America – if then.
By the way, Benedict Imhoff, a gunsmith from Switzerland was on the same ship as Haga. Imhoff is shown as an early gunsmith in Reading and later in Womelsdorf before Bonewitz.
   As to the caption in the RevWar book, Groff, who is usually referred to as Graef in Reading records was much younger than Haga and he is more often shown as a locksmith than a gunsmith, and I found no evidence of either Haga or Graef ever working in Exeter, which I doubt was even settled in the 1750s. And they were not buried in the same cemetery, albeit they practiced in Lutheran churches and I’m not clear why Shreit is out-of-hand mentioned in the same caption, who owned property in Cumru Township, not Crum Township.
This so-called Graef rifle in the book is one of 5 or 6 very similar rifles using wire inlay and plain two-piece patchbox like #30-31, with very simple carving behind the cheekpiece. One is now in The Metropolitan Museum NY. I say “so-called” Graef because I know of no verifiable evidence to show a Graef, Graff or even a Groff made these rifles, although they sure look like Reading rifles. It is a personal opinion that Graef translates to Groff and I'd question that interpretation, given the dominance of the name, Groff around every "dutchy" corner in Berks County.
   And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.
Patrick Hornberger

I’m only as good as the information I have access too. And far too often are the books wrong. It’s why I bring up my ideas and theories—discussions lead to knowledge.  I greatly appreciate your response, it was very informative!

[Tanselman]

I have a hard time figuring out how the last name "Hachen" at the bottom of the receipt is spelled, even when enlarged. The small letter "h" in the middle doesn't look much like an "h" to me but more like an "f," and the capital "H" doesn't look much like a capital "H" either. Is this how his signature normally is found, or looks, when he signed other documents?   

Shelby Gallien

[spgordon]

I have a hard time figuring out how the last name "Hachen" at the bottom of the receipt is spelled, even when enlarged. The small letter "h" in the middle doesn't look much like an "h" to me but more like an "f," and the capital "H" doesn't look much like a capital "H" either. Is this how his signature normally is found, or looks, when he signed other documents?   

It is old German script, which uses different characters. In the 1776 receipt each character, including the capital "H" and the lower-case "h" in the surname, looks exactly as it should. It is unmistakably "Hachen."

There is at least one other document (from the First Reformed Church, in Reading, 1760s) with Hachen's signature, second from the bottom, which looks just like it does in the 1776 receipt:



I've also pointed out, in that document, another capital "H" and lower-case "h."

Probably insignificant to those interested in Hachen, but the signature from the 1760s is much "better" than that from 1776. Letters that in German script are typically connected ("ch") are in the earlier signature but not in the later; and the "e" in Hachen in the earlier document looks more like what an "e" is supposed to look like. In the 1776 receipt, Hachen's vertical strokes are clear (check out the "n" in Wolfgang and in Hachen) but the parts that ought to connect those two vertical strokes just aren't there. Maybe just a matter of haste, or the pen he was using, who knows.