19th Century Steel Castings

[44-henry]

Just curious if anyone has any insights on what a mid 19th century gunsmith would have had available to him in the way of castings if they wanted something in steel? You see all the reference to cast steel barrels, but to my understanding steel castings didn't become common until the end of the 19th century. Were all these parts cast iron later turned to wrought, or was there some other magic method that was being used before the advent of induction furnaces?

[flintriflesmith]

44-Henry,
There is an article that you might find interesting on my web site. It gives a brief history of wrought iron, cast iron, and steel as these materials relate to Colonial American gunsmithing.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/ironandsteel.htm

Cast steel is only mentioned in the next to last paragraph but the short answer is that items, such as gun barrels and wood chisels, marked "Cast Steel" were not themselves cast. They were forged and machined from the material known as "cast steel." Cast steel is also know as crucible steel because when it was first invented in the (about 1739) it could only be made in small batches in crucibles.

Even if a gun part was made of cast steel, which is unlikely until well into the 19th century, it would have been forged from a bar of cast steel, the material, rather than being cast into shape the way objects are manufactured today.

Gary

[Chuck Burrows]

Even if a gun part was made of cast steel, which is unlikely until well into the 19th century, it would have been forged from a bar of cast steel, the material, rather than being cast into shape the way objects are manufactured today.

IMO it would depend on the part - by about 1850 the Hawken shop was using cast buttplates and triggerguards for sure.

[Acer Saccharum]

What about malleable iron? That would be suitable for mounts, eh.

Tom

Wikipedia:
Malleable iron was discovered by Réaumur about 1720. He discovered that iron castings which were too hard to be worked could be softened by packing them into iron ore or hammer slag and exposing them to high temperature for a number of days. Malleable iron was begun in the United States in 1826 when Seth Boyden started a foundry for the production of harness hardware and other small castings[2].

[44-henry]

I've seen the reference to the manufacture of wrought iron before, that seems like it would be the most likely possiblity. I have a Manhattan Arms bar hammer pocket pistol that has a what appears to be a cast steel frame and it was manufactured in the 1850's. I have the capability to cast iron in our lab; It would be kind of neat to try to convert it to wrought iron after the fact. Any idea how true wrought iron would respond to casehardening?

[Acer Saccharum]

I tried welding an old cast pistol frame once. It turned into granular junk. I believe it was cast iron. The CW Ballards were cast iron, casehardened.

Tom

[flintriflesmith]

I've seen the reference to the manufacture of wrought iron before, that seems like it would be the most likely possiblity. I have a Manhattan Arms bar hammer pocket pistol that has a what appears to be a cast steel frame and it was manufactured in the 1850's. I have the capability to cast iron in our lab; It would be kind of neat to try to convert it to wrought iron after the fact. Any idea how true wrought iron would respond to casehardening?

If you read my article you will see that wrought iron responds very well to case hardening and that lock parts inn the flint period, other than springs, were case hardened wrought iron.

Cast iron can be a step in one of the two common methods used in the manufacture of wrought iron when it was remelted and "puddled" in a furnace to burn off the carbon. That is totally different from making malleable cast iron.

Gary

[Dphariss]

Just curious if anyone has any insights on what a mid 19th century gunsmith would have had available to him in the way of castings if they wanted something in steel? You see all the reference to cast steel barrels, but to my understanding steel castings didn't become common until the end of the 19th century. Were all these parts cast iron later turned to wrought, or was there some other magic method that was being used before the advent of induction furnaces?

Flintriflesmith is correct.
Cast steel indicates a specific method of steel making. The bars/ingots were then rolled or hammered to a shape that could then be made into a given steel item.
Items marked "Cast steel" were not cast.

Dan

[Sean]

So, you're saying that percussion era, one-piece, steel buttplates on Hawkens Tryons, and Lemans were in fact forged?  Hmm...

Sean

[44-henry]

Interesting article Gary,
So if I wanted to cast some gun mounts from cast iron, shouldn't it be possible to heat them in an oven above critical temperature and let them decarb to remove excess carbon? I have no idea how long it would take to acheive this, but seems like this should work. Thanks for all the responses.

[Dphariss]

So, you're saying that percussion era, one-piece, steel buttplates on Hawkens Tryons, and Lemans were in fact forged?  Hmm...

Sean

No they were cast probably of malleable iron rather than steel.
But "cast steel" is how the steel was *made*.
Not *necessarily* how the part was made. Gun barrels for example.

Have you ever seen a buttplate with "cast steel" stamped on it?
They were likely made of the cheapest possible material that they could get to pour and not be to brittle for use.

"Cast steel" on a gun barrel indicated it was made of what was thought to be a better grade of material than low grade steel or iron.

Dan

[Sean]

Wrong term, I was asking if you are saying they were not cast but instead forged in dies.

Sean

[Pete Allan]

Cast iron and steel are two very different materials.
common steel -- type 1020 has .18% to.23% carbon
Cast iron has 1.7% to 4.5% carbon
Mallable iron is produced by the annealing or graphitization of White iron castings.
So as you see one must remove a very large amount of carbon from basic cast iron befor ever getting to the product we now call steel.
One of the problems of making steel castings is that common steel just starts to melt around 2700 F and dosen't become real pourable untill just short of 3000 F on the other hand cast iron pours well around 2500 F. As you see electric furnaces are needed for quality steel castings where cast iron can be melted in fossil fuel furnaces.
Like they keep saying on TV -- Don't try this at home

[44-henry]

Yes, it probably isn't quite the thing to put in ones garage, but I certainly wouldn't have any problem fitting one into our university lab. I was looking at a new 50Kg Induction melter on Ebay this afternoon, item number 250539916678
The specs claim that it will reach temperatures in the 3500 degree range. Imported from China, it looks like it could be had easily for $10,000 including shipping. At that cost I am tempted to purchase one as it would be a great training tool for students in our program and also would open up some interesting research avenues. 

[Pete Allan]

44  I am retired now but I had a 75 KW 3000 HZ unit that would take 35 Lb of steel to 3000 F in 6 min. Only  slight problem is it alone used 126 amps of 480 V 3 phase to run it. Then there are other things like water cooling towers and power company off peak time and other B.S. they thought up like demand meters.
Wish I was young again so I could do it all over again

[Dphariss]

44  I am retired now but I had a 75 KW 3000 HZ unit that would take 35 Lb of steel to 3000 F in 6 min. Only  slight problem is it alone used 126 amps of 480 V 3 phase to run it. Then there are other things like water cooling towers and power company off peak time and other B.S. they thought up like demand meters.
Wish I was young again so I could do it all over again

Shiloh Sharps bought a generator set.

Dan

[Pete Allan]

I had a generator unit befor I bought a modern solid state unit. The generator ran off a 50 HP moter and turned a HF 4200 HZ generator so I still used power co. power to run it. One good thing about the new solid state units is they run at about 97% efficiency rather than the 30 to 50% efficiency of the older motor generator units like I first had.

[44-henry]

One of the nice things about the university is that I don't have to pay the power bill nor do they seem to pay much attention to it. I am having a university electrician come over to our manufacturing lab over Christmas break to see what we need to have done to prepare for this furnace. Should make for a happy New Years if they approve it.

[dannybb55]

So, you're saying that percussion era, one-piece, steel buttplates on Hawkens Tryons, and Lemans were in fact forged?  Hmm...

Sean

No they were cast probably of malleable iron rather than steel.
But "cast steel" is how the steel was *made*.
Not *necessarily* how the part was made. Gun barrels for example.

Have you ever seen a buttplate with "cast steel" stamped on it?
They were likely made of the cheapest possible material that they could get to pour and not be to brittle for use.

"Cast steel" on a gun barrel indicated it was made of what was thought to be a better grade of material than low grade steel or iron.

Dan

Cast steel is made out of selected Blister steel that is puddled in a furnace to get more consistent carbon content. Case hardening only affects the surface of the iron, the carbon stays near the surface. The oxygen furnaces that came out in the 19th century negated these earlier techniques.                                                           
 Leman, Derringer, Tryon, Henry etc used forging dies, power hammers, lathes and milling machinery, a lot like Springfield and Harpers Ferry. Take a look at the Springfield museum's collection of machinery to get an idea. Why do you think these boys got the big contracts and built rifle muskets in times of crisis? Making a buttplate is no big thing. pull a hot billet out of the coals, slip it on to the bottom die and press the treadle. Bam Bam Bam, toss it in the slack tub for the finishers to grind and file. It's easy as making a Mauser. 14 shopping days left.   Danny