black powder?

[yip]

does anybody know what makes swiss a better black powder than goex? it seems to me your paying for a name. these days when we need jobs in the good ole U.S.A. we should be spending our money here, not sending it over seas to make a foreign country rich.

[Roger Fisher]

My understanding, for what its worth is it's the wood E. European Alder and the way it's debarked - stored - makes the best charcoal.   You pay more but use abt 15% less.  Yes, buy american if you can. I do.  Never bought swiss although I was lucky enough to win 'some'!

[Dphariss]

does anybody know what makes swiss a better black powder than goex? it seems to me your paying for a name. these days when we need jobs in the good ole U.S.A. we should be spending our money here, not sending it over seas to make a foreign country rich.

It uses a better charcoal that is carefully burnt till its right for powder making. It has a slightly higher saltpeter content, its milled longer so the particle size is smaller, its pressed a little harder so its more dense. Finally it is polished better and has no graphite coating added.
As a result it give better velocity for a given charge weight and the fouling is reduced.
In general accuracy is better as well.
So far as I know short of importing charcoal Goex cannot make this grade of powder.

There is a lot more to this from my personal standpoint but the change in ownership at Goex pretty well negates this.
I still shoot swiss. For the same reason that people in the late 18th century often shot imported powder.

Dan

[northmn]

Buy local or US or buy foreign.  I have heard the arguement when I worked for cities that I should buy local.  On a macro scale buy U.S.   GOEX makes an Express powder that is about the same price as Swiss.  Is it as good  You can also gets Grafs powder a little cheaper than GOEX that is supposed to use Alder for charcoal.  I have some and it is a good powder.  Economics finds its own level.  A purchase U.S. campaign does not work if the U.S. does not produce as good of products.   A few yers ago when the Japanese cars got popular, they did so due to increased fuel prices and American manufacturers made few economy cars.  It was then found that they also were better built and had 8 times less recall rates than American cars.  Since then American cars have done better.  We now have cars that last over 100,000 miles instead of the planned obsolence days of 60-80,000 miles.  I used to sometimes feel like I got a little screwed when I bought locally in some of the smaller towns as the business people seemed to think I owed it to them.  Getting the same thing for less money is what our economic system is about.  I have Swiss powder and have heard little about GOEX Express.  I might switch if it is as good.

DP

[Dphariss]

Charcoal is important to how the powder will perform.
If I am properly informed C&H stopped making Diamond Grain when their ability to import the proper charcoal ended.

Dan

[stoneke]

Dphariss' reference to Swiss powder being better polished and without graphite coating raises the following question.

I have used both Swiss FF and FFF in different guns and find this to be excellent powder. However, this past fall I used Swiss FFF as an alternate priming powder during some snowy days while elk hunting. I also used FFFF Goex on the clear and dry days. While refreshing the pan every 30 to 60 minutes I noticed that the Swiss FFF , although seemingly dry, tended not to freely fall from the pan, as did the FFFF Goex. The Swiss seemed to have "caked" into more of a semi-solid mass. When poked with a pick it broke apart and cleared the pan.

Would Goex FFF (being graphite glazed) thus be a better FFF priming powder? I have no actual field experience in priming with Goex FFF to compare the two powders under harsh conditions. Any thoughts out there? (I did touch off an end-of-day charge that was primed with the Swiss FFF and found that I got quick ignition of the charge.)

[hanshi]

If I am correct, I believe the graphite does help keep the powder from caking as badly as non graphited powder.  I haven't heard what other effects the graphite might have.

[Daryl]

I generally use FFF GOEX for priming, rain, snow or shine. At times, in humid circumstances, the pan must be wiped before priming - never a problem with ignition, though.  I've not noticed any difference when I ran out of pime and used 3F instea of 4F.  I've no experience with Swiss, but would like some - 

[Dphariss]

If I am correct, I believe the graphite does help keep the powder from caking as badly as non graphited powder.  I haven't heard what other effects the graphite might have.

It is non-combustible at BP temps so it increases fouling in firearms.
Most militarys would not accept "black lead" on the powder used for propellant.
The primary reason for using it is to get a polish on the powder without really polishing it.
Properly made powder has a thin skin of saltpeter that makes it shiny.
The rounding that takes place in the polishing also helps control the initial burn rate of very fast powders like Swiss.

One old test of powder quality was to rub a small amount on the palm of the hand. Good powder created no black mark.
Swiss Null B powder will tend to cake in the pan but not severely. I doubt it will effect ignition. Guess I need to test this somehow. Both Goex and Swiss use pure saltpeter and this basically prevents any significant up take of water from the atmosphere. It will also tend to give back the moisture once the humidity is reduced.
Slight amounts of sodium nitrate in the mix can cause the powder to suck up water and possibly even liquify in high humidity.

Dan

[northmn]

I thought that the graphite was also designed to make it a little more stable against static.  One of those things you hear sometime and cannot remember where.  As to buy American, standard GOEX is not so bad that I would not feel that handicapped if I had to use it since it was the only game in town for many years.  The Graf's stuff I bought does not seem to be as powerful grain for grain as GOEX but is very close.  Swiss may have a little more kick but it does not pay the difference in price.  It may not have any advantage as priming powder unless 3f is used.  About the big difference in Swiss is for someone doing a bit of repetitive shooting as in target shooting.  Its really taken hold in the BPC game.  I bought some to try it and the jurys still out for me.  I still would like to hear whether GOEX Express is not a better powder than the standard.  Claims are that it also fouls less. 

DP

[Mad Monk]

I thought that the graphite was also designed to make it a little more stable against static.  One of those things you hear sometime and cannot remember where.  As to buy American, standard GOEX is not so bad that I would not feel that handicapped if I had to use it since it was the only game in town for many years.  The Graf's stuff I bought does not seem to be as powerful grain for grain as GOEX but is very close.  Swiss may have a little more kick but it does not pay the difference in price.  It may not have any advantage as priming powder unless 3f is used.  About the big difference in Swiss is for someone doing a bit of repetitive shooting as in target shooting.  Its really taken hold in the BPC game.  I bought some to try it and the jurys still out for me.  I still would like to hear whether GOEX Express is not a better powder than the standard.  Claims are that it also fouls less. 

DP

The Express Powder is something of a mixed bag.  When GOEX was working on it they sent me some to look at.  It uses the regular formulation and the same ingredients as the regular production.  For the Express they ball mill the charcoal and sulfur for a longer period of time.  Then the batches of powder are run in the wheel mill a bit longer.  This gives smaller ingredient particle size in the finished powder.  In theory this should increase the burn rate and make it burn a bit cleaner.  My job in the development was to see if the additional working time did reduce ingredient particle size which it did.  In my patched ball shooting the Express was an improvement over the regular powder.  A bit faster and cleaner.  But not up to the Swiss powder standards.

When it came to pricing the Express Powder GOEX listened to their Internet front man and several of his BP cartridge shooting buddies and set the price up there with the Swiss.  From my industrial experience I felt that the additional machine time for the Express did not warrant the difference in price they set.  But it is their company, not mine.

So if you shoot GOEX regular, Express and Swiss you will find the Express does not match the Swiss while being better than the regular.  If you shoot big heavy bullets you will not see as great a difference between the powders.

As did Dan P., I'll pass on the buy American nonsense in this powder business.  I'll simply say any patriotism is greatly misplaced.

Bill K.

[Dave K]

For what it is worth, I just plain love Swiss. No science behind it, just like the less fouling. BUT, there is a down side for me. I am shooting a 50cal with a .490 ball and .018 patch in a Colerain barrel. Using 2F Swiss, sure makes it hard to come up with a patch/ball/lube combo that doesn't want to burn or shred patches. Going to 1 1/2F would be smart, probably. As it is, about as heavy as I can go is 65gr. I should have a chrono, to tell me what I really want to know. It maybe plenty of powder with this combo of load.

[Dphariss]

For what it is worth, I just plain love Swiss. No science behind it, just like the less fouling. BUT, there is a down side for me. I am shooting a 50cal with a .490 ball and .018 patch in a Colerain barrel. Using 2F Swiss, sure makes it hard to come up with a patch/ball/lube combo that doesn't want to burn or shred patches. Going to 1 1/2F would be smart, probably. As it is, about as heavy as I can go is 65gr. I should have a chrono, to tell me what I really want to know. It maybe plenty of powder with this combo of load.

I was shooting with 50 cal Colerains a while back with no problems.
I have GM 50s and they don't cause grief.
If I were blowing patches with a .490 I would go to a 495.
Probably shoot better too.
I use 75 gr of FF or FFF Swiss. FFF seems to give faster ignition but I could be in error too.
1.5 will nto be a lot different than FF from reports I have had.
A heavier powder charge may help with the patch problem, or not.
Dan

[Dave K]

I think I have tried it all, including .495's and naturally different patching and lube. Then the problem becomes extremely hard to load without a hammer. When you get a patch/ball/lube combo you can load, you burn the patch. Now, if I use a wet patch and shoot while it is still wet, the patch survives and the accuracy is good, But let that patch dry or try anything like a grease patch and the patch fails. I also recently coned the muzzle to help with loading. This barrel has well in excess of 1500 shots out of it. This barrel seemed to work fine when it was newer, but I have tried everything this past year and unbreeched the gun to look at the bore and I recently had Colerain look at it as well.

[Roger Fisher]

I think I have tried it all, including .495's and naturally different patching and lube. Then the problem becomes extremely hard to load without a hammer. When you get a patch/ball/lube combo you can load, you burn the patch. Now, if I use a wet patch and shoot while it is still wet, the patch survives and the accuracy is good, But let that patch dry or try anything like a grease patch and the patch fails. I also recently coned the muzzle to help with loading. This barrel has well in excess of 1500 shots out of it. This barrel seemed to work fine when it was newer, but I have tried everything this past year and unbreeched the gun to look at the bore and I recently had Colerain look at it as well.

Assuming the Colerain folks claim the bore is good, and if she were mine I would give her the 4/0 or Scotchbrite treatment and then try her again with a snug load and spit! If this is a 'young' barrel the edges of the lands may have a burr or three!

[Dave K]

Been there and done that many times. If I back off the powder charge to 60gr. or less with Swiss, the patch survives. If I go to 2F Goex and I am shooting 80gr. the patch survives, but the crud is sure there, with Goex compared to Swiss. Now, if I put a patch down on top of the powder when I use Swiss, the shooting patch "usually" survives. I am trying though to keep it simple and not have to do that. I need for the weather to get more comfortable again and continue shooting on the bench again. Maybe I can use 2F Schuetzen as it is cleaner in my guns than Goex also. Colerain gave the barrel a clean bill of health. This was about a month ago, Scott called me himself. Ok I know, people will say that you may have to swab more between shots. That is fine with me plinking, but when hunting, I don't like to swab between shots. Every time you do, it seems as if you run the risk of leaving cruds in the vent or breech area, that may hurt your ignition.

[Daryl]

Dave - I shoot .400" with a .018" tight weave 'drill' patch - using a starter of course.  The crown makes a difference, swaging the ball into the bore, without cutting or damage. Pounding as in the use of a mallet destroys it's shape and slugs it up making for an even tighter fit.  You could lapp in a bit of a choke, even a couple thousanths would help with loading a tight combination. This needs a lead lapp, preferrably adjustable. Ned's book tells how.

[Dave K]

Daryl, before sending the barrel to Colerain, the barrel was coned using Joe Wood's tool, to a point where the original rifling is all but gone at the muzzle. After that, the muzzle was lapped with a cherry and then 400-600 grit paper followed with a lapping compound. One of the fellows who owon about 5 of the slug events at Friendship fall national this year, helped me with this. As a matter of fact, it appeared as if he didn't win, his son did. Don is pretty sharp when it comes to this. Of course I have no intent on hunting with a mallet to start a ball. I just still feel that Swiss may be to hot for this set up. Don and I did spend a "range day" with all the known variables tried, patching thickness, ball size and even brands and lubes. The only thing we didn't have with us that day was Schuetzen. Right now I am using 80gr. 2F Goex and .020 teflon patching. It is still a stiff to start load with a .490 ball, but it is doable without a hammer. Would sure hate to shoot 50 shots though. In a nut shell, we just plain ran out of weather to make another range session enjoyable. Next year in better weather, I can resume testing. At least I have a load that I can hunt with, but it sure is not as "nice" as Swiss.

[Daryl]

I can't even stand the thought of haivng to wipe my bore while shooting the trail. We shoot up to 85 shots some days (in warmer weather, mostly).

I haven't tried teflon but hear it requires wiping.  I don't mind using a short starter and with the practise I've aquired, loading with one is probalby faster than without & having to realy choke up on the rod and push harder.

I guess it's each to his own on this. roger uses a ball that's .007" larger than his bore, with a .015" cloth patch and I'll wager he doesn't use or need a mallet.  Neither of us use a coned muzzle.

I've a friend with a long coned rifle, LB - whose gun is more difficult to load with a bore sized ball than mine is, and I use a thicker patch than he does, even with his smaller balls.  So- I guess it's all what you are used to, and will or will not put up with.  I prefer the accurcy that comes with a tight combination, while for others, this is not important.

[Dave K]

Actually accuracy is what is am always after. I guess I never did say, I am using a short starter also. I coned the muzzle to eliminate the crown from doing any damage to the patch and it is not. You can start and send down a tight combo, pull the patch and ball and the patch is not damaged. I am looking for a the best accuracy I can find and still load the gun from the bag without using any tools to hammer it down and do this repeatably. I can't see how you can ball that is bore size or larger and with a .015 patch, not have to use a mallet. Unless the ball has the softness of a jelly bean.

[Dphariss]

Patch lube can make a BIG difference in how a ball starts.
I did a short video of loading a 54 Douglas with a 535, a .018+ ticking patch and nothing but the rod. Just a smooth crown no "funneling".
But I had wd-40 in the bore and with the sperm whale oil . The two combined seemed to "bond" to the bore and would not move. Once I got one down and then pulled I started the rest OK.
Then while shooting a 54 pistol first with the Sperm Whale oil then with some pure Neatsfoot oil.
The Neatsfoot was notably slicker and loaded much easier but tended to not shoot as well in rifles.

If the bore is funneled as you say and loads hard then you need to make sure that the ball is the size you think.

If you use too much Swiss you can run into very hard fouling throughout the bore. It has to do with the heat of combustion getting to a temp where it changes the powder fouling to something very hard. Dropping the powder charge slightly will make a dramatic difference.
Many patch lubes on the market are not lubricants. Some rifles like this and it can lower velocity variations since the ball does not move as easily.
I have three 50 caliber GM barrels and these load with a rod only though I should be using a starter with the swivel breech I guess not because it loads hard but to reduce strain on the swivel.



This rod is 30 years old now and is original to the gun.
I hate packing a starter around since I have seldom needed one for anything but the 16 bore rifle.

This is the crown.


Dan

[northmn]

While I do not think buy American is neccesarily nonsense, it does not warrant getting less for the same money or more money.  For some uses, like priming, I question whether buying a can of Swiss 4f will give better results than a can of GOEX or Grafs.  It seemed to work well in my 54.  I remember a discussion on "socking" powder where an individual put powder in an old sock and shook it a bit and then poured it out.  The graphite stuck to the sock and gave cleaner powder.  I have read wher they used to sift GOEX in a variety of fashions.  Obviously the Swiss eliminates some of the hassle.

DP

[Daryl]

Actually accuracy is what is am always after. I guess I never did say, I am using a short starter also. I coned the muzzle to eliminate the crown from doing any damage to the patch and it is not. You can start and send down a tight combo, pull the patch and ball and the patch is not damaged. I am looking for a the best accuracy I can find and still load the gun from the bag without using any tools to hammer it down and do this repeatably. I can't see how you can ball that is bore size or larger and with a .015 patch, not have to use a mallet. Unless the ball has the softness of a jelly bean.

I use pure lead only - very soft from the walls of an X-ray room. I have to add abotu 3/8" of 50/50 tin/lead solder to the 20 pound pot to allow casting more than 20 balls before having to skim off the hard dross that forms on the surface. With the trace amount of tin, the 'melt' stays silver longer, allowing perhaps 60 or more balls before fluxing and skimming again - about 45min worth of casting.

Some time ago, as in last winter, we posted a short video of Hatchet Jack and I loading and shooting. I was using my .45 longrifle with Hatchet Jack his 20 bore.  We both had shot the entire trail - maybe 50 to 70 shots depending on how many 'extra' shots I took at various targets - never wiped.  I use a .445" ball (measured) with a .0215" denim patch and probably was using windhsielf washer fluid with a bit of soap added.  Once down the length of the starter shaft, loading is easy, as noted in the video.  The starter needs one whack to get the ball down the bore about 6', then in two or three pushes with rod it's on the powder.

The .40 (.010" rifling) mentioned, which uses a .400" ball (measured) uses a .018" patch and loads as easily as the .45 (.011" rifling), with it's 3/8" rod.  Brad, Lennard, Taylor, Leather Belly, Crispy, Clarence and Hatchet Jack all load similarly & don't have to wipe for the entire day's shooting, although Clarence, Crispy and Hatchet Jack load a somewhat looser conbination than the rest of us do.

My 14 bore (.012" rifling depth) uses a ball that is .006" smaller than the bore, along with a .025" denim patch.  It's rod is 24 years old this Jan. and is used with loads from 82gr. to 165gr., without any loading difficulties.  Perhaps next time out, we'll do another short video of loading, just as a refresher.

My patch thicknesses are given by measuring with a michometer, not calipers. My calipers measure the patch thickness as .003" to .004" thicker than the mic.
I am now testing some mattress ticking, that measures .021" with calipers, but only .018" with the mic.  I am hoping it shoots well in all my guns, as it's a descent price and easily aquired.  New, it measured .030" with the mic., yet the one matchine washing removed a LOT of sizing, and now it's very soft and loads easily.  Store bought patches always measure much thinner than what's on the package, for me.  The OxYoke .018' were only .015"- too thin for anything I shoot.

Dan's video is a good one, showing pressure alone is what he seats the ball with in his .54.

[Dphariss]

While I do not think buy American is neccesarily nonsense, it does not warrant getting less for the same money or more money.  For some uses, like priming, I question whether buying a can of Swiss 4f will give better results than a can of GOEX or Grafs.  It seemed to work well in my 54.  I remember a discussion on "socking" powder where an individual put powder in an old sock and shook it a bit and then poured it out.  The graphite stuck to the sock and gave cleaner powder.  I have read wher they used to sift GOEX in a variety of fashions.  Obviously the Swiss eliminates some of the hassle.

DP

There is more to the buy American, thing that meets the eye when powder is the subject.
In some competitions it is very difficult to be competitive unless Swiss is used.

I know people that screen Swiss for target loads.
Just like shooters used to screen C&H Diamond Grain, or whatever they were using.
Powder of uniform grain size gives more consistent ballistics.

I have a bottle of Swiss "Null B" priming powder. Don't know that is any better than FFFFG Goex but I figured I would give it a try. If I had to say I would think the only difference might be less fouling in the pan?

Dan

[Dphariss]

Bumped the wrong key and posted to soon.
See http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm
In equipment lists it will give you the different powders used and how many shooters used what powder.

Dan