"Workmanship"

[Cody Tetachuk]

I started this as a response in the "Frankenrifle" thread but then thought perhaps it should be on it's own. I have seen some pretty awful guns that someone paid good money for. Have also seen some pretty awful engraving that someone paid good money for. I not only wonder how anyone could pay for such "workmanship" but how anyone could CHARGE for such "workmanship". However, years ago watching "American idol" I was astonished by the contestants that couldn't carry a tune in a bucket but honestly thought they were "the best". Back when I was "building" guns, I only "built" three guns for someone else. Two were Chambers kits and one was from a blank. A Chambers fowler kit and a .40 cal rifle for my Dad and a Lancaster kit for a friend (it was a surprise from his then wife). The two for dad of course were free and the one for the friend I charged less than the cost of the kit. Just never thought my work was worth "good money" but, not wanting to "toot my own horn", was better than some that I have seen that people paid for ( the gun in the frankerifle thread is an example). There was a guy that set up a table at a local gunshow for a few years selling his engraving services. Had many examples of his work on display. I think his best work would be on par with my very first attempt and that was NOT GOOD. Still seemed to garner paid customers though and, in the end, if the customer is happy, that is what matters. It is when, like the Frankenrifle example the customer pays good money for it, then has to take it to someone else for a re-fit. Why they paid for it in the first place if they didn't like it I will never know. I think SOME of it may be due to others showering praise on less than quality work either through ignorance or not wanting to hurt their feelings. Showering praise where it is not warranted is doing a disservice IMO but pointing out shortcomings should be done with tact and honesty and only, IMO when asked for. If someone shows off their work and asks for critique, be honest but tactful. That is how they will learn and improve. OK, I'm just rambling now so I'll end it here.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Cody, you bring up very good points.
We discussed this subject many years ago here, and some good points were made then, and I will reiterate a few of them.
Tom Curran eloquently suggested that everyone who builds and presents their work here, whether for just show and tell, or for critique, should be honoured for their effort and courage, to not only take on the work but to take it to completion and for the courage to post it here for the world to view.
Don Getz agreed, but was quick to point out that giving praise where it was inappropriate was not doing the builder a useful service.  He said that most folks who comment are just giving 'atatboys', and while everyone likes positive feedback, truthful critique is far more valuable, not only to the poster, but to everyone else who view the thread.  Don was good at giving gentle sound critique that if acted upon, would benefit the builder.
For the most part, people who post images of their work here get thorough postitive feedback, at times gushy and extravagant.  And if that is all they take away from their posting, it is easy to see how a builder could come away with a swollen head (ego), and might even price their work to reflect this unrealistic praise.
Fortunately for us subscribers to ALR, there are frequent examples of really superlative gun building, work that continually raises the bar and inspires the rest of us to strive for perfection by improving our own work.  There is a wide range of ability, experience, and perception here.  There are some who can see nuances in form and architecture and in execution, that is missed by many others.  Most folks can look over a piece and understand that it has great merit, but cannot tell you or show you where and why.  Thus it will be impossible for those folks to utilize what they have missed or incorporate it into their own work.  Yet we all move along at our own pace, studying and learning as we go.  Or not.
I am reminded of a poem called "Desiderata" (if I spelled it correctly). It is great philosophy and something to which to aspire.

[hanshi]

Great response, Taylor.  I firmly agree with you.  As a non-builder and looking at photos in various lighting conditions I try to gage my responses to what I think I see as well as what the poster has completed.  I DO NOT have that discerning eye and know somewhat less than ZERO about building rifles, judging them and making suggestions.  I cannot give advice or constructive criticisms but I can point out what I like and what looks good to my amateur understanding.  If I see something that obviously looks like it needs work I can agree with the knowledgeable repliers who already point out and describe alternatives.  I hope I lead no one astray but do try and be honest and never dismiss another's work.

[Jim Kibler]

I think this is largely due to the fact that many do not have the ability to discern what quality work is.  Trying to explain this to some can be a waste of effort.  If someone can't see or appreciate something for themselves why do you think they are going to believe you?  Many or most will trust their own thoughts or judgements regardless of how little they know, understand or can appreciate.  In other words,  people often don't realize how little they know.

An example...  Things look a lot better when I don't have my contacts in.  I'm more prone to say something looks good or at the very least, I'm less likely to find any problems.  Not everybody can "see" well. 

[axelp]

I agree. You cannot know what you don't know...  BUT, I would argue that there is almost nothing that cannot be learned, So there is hope for all of us.

On the flip side, Jesus Himself, said it was not worth it to cast pearls before swine... I guess whether it's worth it to share what you know with people, depends on how open the person is to learning.

 My opinion on this is that ignorance is not stupid--- until you are shown the truth, and still choose to go against it.

K

[JH Ehlers]

If I present my work here, I would like to have honest reactions, you could say something like, "Are you good at anything else, gun making isn't your forte because that looks terrible" then I wouldn't have to go through another painfull barrel or lock inlet by hand, and focus my energy on other stuff. People tend to not comment or lightly praise when sub par work is presented to not hurt feelings. I know who the great gunmakers on this forum are and really admire and study the finer details of their work. I also think people are too quick to pick up tools and start on something without educating themselves and it is  amazing how much education/study there can be.

[Beaverman]

If I present my work here, I would like to have honest reactions, you could say something like, "Are you good at anything else, gun making isn't your forte because that looks terrible" then I wouldn't have to go through another painfull barrel or lock inlet by hand, and focus my energy on other stuff. People tend to not comment or lightly praise when sub par work is presented to not hurt feelings. I know who the great gunmakers on this forum are and really admire and study the finer details of their work. I also think people are too quick to pick up tools and start on something without educating themselves and it is  amazing how much education/study there can be.

If a person wants honest opinion and critique they simply have to ask for it.

[JH Ehlers]

That is true Beaverman, but some people have great trust in their ability. Your ability to distinguish between quality work and garbage, for builders and buyers, as was mentioned by Jim is important. It must be a modern day thing, in the past you had to do a long apprenticeship and you could trust the gun maker knows what he is doing. Like they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, maybe the frankenrifle was the most beautiful thing someone had ever seen.

[Daryl]

Most of us have GROWN to appreciate fine rifles and smoothbore since the 70's & 80's fiascals.

[Dave B]

It has been a long road from when I first got the bug to build muzzleloaders in 1977.  They actually taught a class at the local highschool in rifle building. It was an evening class taught by The History teacher Gary Rodel. He was a shaker and a mover in the Spokane gun collectors seen.  I was new and not knowing any thing about it but for the McCroy book on building a Muzzleloader. It shot real well but looking back its ugly as sin. After almost taking first place at some shooting matches I was approched about building rifles for higher. I built 3 and charge enough to build one for my self. Got my parts from Track of the Wolf. They were a step up being from precarves and were Hawken rifles. No one complained  about them but looking back they were too fat. Joe Williams of he Gun Works talked me into building some rifles and pistols for him. Again precarves so no worries about architecture. The thing that changed my life in rifle building was going to the Oregon Gunmakers fair. Holy Cow. What an eye opener. What a differnce having someone look at my work and be tactfully honest about my work as well as show me how to do better.  I find I see some builders work over the years and they have not changed how they do things. I had the rare opportunity to see at a Portland Oregon gun show  two pistols and one rifle by Hacker Martin. They look amaizing at 20 feet. rough as a cob holding them. but its hand made and still functioning. He made them in his workman like mannor. No doubt he didnt waste his time polishing out all the scratches but got er done and down the road. I like to think every one I build is going to be a little better done than my last one.  I guess thats the point of our coming togerther to talk about this stuff.  I love it.

[alacran]

Jim's point is well taken. Most people do not know what "quality" work is. But quality is a is a subjective term. So how do you asses it?
If I were to buy a muzzleloading rifle, what would be the things that I would look for that would indicate it is a quality rifle.
Let's assume that this hypothetical rifle is devoid of any decorations such as carving, inlays or engraving. In other words, a basic functional rifle, Jim Kible'rs SMR comes to mind.
The word architecture gets thrown around this forum quite a bit and I really don't like the term.  I would look at the rifle to see if it aesthetically balanced. Are the curved surfaces "fair" that is devoid of kinks and bumps. Are the dimensions of the wrist, the butt and the forearm, as well as the comb
consistent with the time period and the style (I don't like the term school) again, Jim Kibler's SMR comes to mind.
After that initial glance, I would look at the details. The inlet of the lock would be the first place I look. Then barrel and tang, followed by the butt plate and trigger guard. Lastly, I would look at the pipes with special attention to the entry pipe.
If the inlets are sloppy, I am immediately turned off. All one has to do to know what good inlets look like is to look at English sporting guns of the late 18th and early 19th century.
If at this point all the above criteria suited me, I would then make sure the mechanisms function properly.
I would take the same approach if a rifle was highly decorated. I would ignore the bling and look at the basics.
Of course the biggest hypothetical is me actually buying a rifle.

[Goo]

Two Points Indentured apprenticeships, and Guilds.    For the jewelry trade here in the US the Federal Trade Commission sets forth guidelines NOT laws concerning products sold in the USA.   Therefore all jewelry made of Silver being sold in discount stores is mostly less than 0.925.   When I was buying and selling scrap gold and silver between 2005 - 2019, 90% of the scrap silver I bought averaged approximately 30% silver and heavily plated to keep it shiny.     If you are concerned about your trade and quality products I suggest a change toward that which is practiced in other countries like England for example.   If you wish to sell a piece of jewelry you must first send it to goldsmiths hall it must be tested and Hall Marked with a certified stamp into the metal.  If you are concerned about the quality of Modern but Authentic Longrifles then consider setting up a guild to protect the craft while there are still people alive who know whats right and wrong, Like  Mike Lea or Ken Netting.   A guild can also educate those who wish to buy an authentic piece, this will cause them to understand the cost and the commitment and the rest can go buy something else.    As the old saying goes "Any one can make anything cheaper and if your biggest concern is low price then you are that mans lawful prey."   

[Cody Tetachuk]

Don Glasser, co-founder of GRS engraving equipment had some good quotes ion the subject. The one that I remember verbatim was referring to criticizing (not in a mean way) the work of others that is better than what the criticizer is capable of and it points to knowledge and a critical eye as opposed to ability. It is "I don't need to know how to bake an apple pie to know when I am eating a good one". Others, that I don't recall verbatim but recall the "essence" are, "Don't let aunt Edna's gushing praise go to your head" and "in order to engrave you must first need to know how to draw. However, my 6 year old grand-daughter can "draw" so what does to mean to now how to "draw"?". The BIG one, IMO is the point about "aunt Edna's gushing praise". It is easy, especially when starting out to let the gushing praise of people who have NO CLUE what they are looking at go to ones head. This should be less of an issue these days than in the past as, with the internet,  there are sights like this where REAL assessments can be had from REAL knowledgeable people that actually DO know what they are looking at. I am reminded of my second or maybe third rifle that I made and showing it to my grandmother and, of course she heaped on the praise. I started to point out the many shortcomings and mistakes and she looked at me and said, "Why would you point those things out?" I said "because they exist and it "is what it is" and IMO its is important that you know that it is NOT as wonderful as you think". While the unwarranted gushing praise from the ignorant still makes one FEEL good, I always tried to "keep it real" lest it go to my head and I quit trying to improve. My wife can attest that there was not one single gun that I built that I did not threaten to throw in the burning barrel at some point because I screwed it up so bad. I would take a few days or a week off, then revisit the project and devise a plan to "fix" it and carry on. This brings me to another quote but I do not recall where I heard it. It went something like this, " it is not a perfect execution that makes a master craftsman. NO-one is perfect and we ALL make mistakes. The sign of a master craftsman is the ability to cover up/fix the mistakes so they are no longer apparent". Something to that effect.

[Bob Roller]

One of the best definitions of "Quality"I ever read said It's the goal to be achieved after simple usefulness has been satisfied.Works for me.
The willing generosity of Lynton McKenzie in loaning me a fine Stanton "4 pin"lock made it possible for me to make a close copy of it and about 36 more plus 7 scaled down for boys rifles.These locks are an alien idea in the USA and do go beyond anything usually seen on guns
and one of the last Hawken locks I made was on the J&S plates but with the "3 pin" mechanism and now is on a rifle in Texas.There IS a noticeable difference is these English style mechanisms and the conventional types used here.
Bob Roller

[Spalding]

Doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about gun making, soldering pipes in your bathroom, running a weld bead, doing a brake job, or even mowing your lawn.
It’s called pride in workmanship. Can’t really teach it or expect it. You either have it or you don’t. Most people fall into the “that’s good enough” category and never strive for better.

Bob

[Cody Tetachuk]

Doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about gun making, soldering pipes in your bathroom, running a weld bead, doing a brake job, or even mowing your lawn.
It’s called pride in workmanship. Can’t really teach it or expect it. You either have it or you don’t. Most people fall into the “that’s good enough” category and never strive for better.

Bob

And there is nothing "wrong" with "good enough" if that is how you are "wired". I don't recall where I heard/read it but there is a saying that "perfect is the enemy of good". I don't know HOW many times I have done something that turned out "pretty good" but I thought it could be better just to royally screw it up. I am the guy with the chisel.

[Spalding]

Doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about gun making, soldering pipes in your bathroom, running a weld bead, doing a brake job, or even mowing your lawn.
It’s called pride in workmanship. Can’t really teach it or expect it. You either have it or you don’t. Most people fall into the “that’s good enough” category and never strive for better.

Bob

And there is nothing "wrong" with "good enough" if that is how you are "wired". I don't recall where I heard/read it but there is a saying that "perfect is the enemy of good". I don't know HOW many times I have done something that turned out "pretty good" but I thought it could be better just to royally screw it up. I am the guy with the chisel.

😂Been there, done that too, Cody. But I try to learn from my mistakes.
When I was restoring vehicles, I read a quote that’s always stuck with me, “ if you complete each minor task to the best of your ability, when it all comes together you’ll be happy with your results. If you insist on perfection with every little thing, you’ll never get anywhere.”

Bob

[axelp]

I disagree with the idea that doing or recognizing good work cannot be learned. None of us were born knowing what makes a quality long rifle. or a fine wine. We learn it over time. Experience. Who gets a good laugh out of old pictures of 1970 era Rondy and reenactment folks--what a freaking joke, right? And yet many of those same folks are respected skilled history mentors today and they exemplify the "right" way to do this hobby.

What I thought was "quality" 20 years ago is not what I think is quality today. It won't be what I think is quality 20 years from now. I know its fun and easy to look down at others that are not at the high level you are currently at, but look back a little and be honest with yourself and you will see that there was a time that you truly sucked at mowing lawns too...

I have a huge amount of respect and appreciation for guys like Wayne Estes and Mike Brooks and many others that take the time and are patient with inexperienced builders that are awkward with hand tools, have zero confidence and might even be all thumbs (that would define me)... And also the folks on this board that are patient and able to be constructive and truthful with their criticism.

K

[Eric Kettenburg]

Just throwing this out there.

JP Beck, or #42, or a decorated Dickert.

OTOH:  Johannes Neff, or Peter Angstadt, or Stofil Long.

What is more interesting?  Who decides which piece is "finer?"

I would take any of the second group over any of the first group any day of the week and twice on sundays. 

Am I not 'seeing?'  Do I have bad taste? 


Throwing this out there part II:

Aged rifles.  Real aging, not contemporary black pigment and rust blue.  Crappy workmanship or artistic statement?  Are we judging solely on as-new philosophy, or can we allow for the introduction of an artistic statement and approach which may contradict the concept of good workmanship?  After all, if the lock mortice and breech are heavily buggered to represent centuries of use (whether genuine or imitative), are they then ranked solely in terms of workmanship?  You can't build a perfect rifle, smear some black $#@* all over it and pit the metal a bit, and call it "aged" because it doesn't look anything like a genuinely old rifle.  You can call it contemporary I guess.  But then, if one tries to imitate genuine age - is that shoddy "workmanship" if deliberate?

Throwing this out there part III:

People traditionally utilize European work as example for top quality workmanship.  This level of work and finish, however, is 99.9% of the time very far removed from the manner in which American arms were constructed and finished.  Wear aside.  So if one wishes to render a true impression of an American rifle and does not meet the European standard, is that shoddy "workmanship?"  Or is it an accurate rendition?  Should we all be building 'london longrifles' as John Bivins' work used to be termed?

My opinion on all of the above:  the best outcome is that the gunstocker is happy and the customer is happy.  Period.

[Bob Roller]

''Should we all be building London long rifles"? The builders that are still active should do their best based on skill and equipment available.
  I think most of them do and using available power tools makes sense to me.I have no idea about making a lock without a lathe and a good milling machine is a luxury.The ability to get power thru simple wires was a BIG step forward to the human race in general and made production possible in all venues where many items were and are needed.Good lights finally replaced skylights (windows)in the roof and standards were established for measurement and the micrometer replaced the yardstick.I have inletted octagon barrels using chisels but
if I were going to do that now my milling machine running full speed with a shaped tool ground from a Speed Bore drill and checked with a
gauge known to be 45 degrees.Same with inletting a lock mechanism.Inlet the plate by hand and then the fast mill for the rest.
Two rifles that I used a lot were a SMR made for me by Leonard Meadows in Shady Springs WVa and an outstanding English Whitworth semi military target rifle.Two fine examples from two very different cultures and ideas as to how guns should be made.
Bob Roller
 

[Mike Brooks]

As a long time member here I have seen many a #$@* thrown up on the screen to the never-ending chorus of "Nice gun". It becomes nails on the chalkboard after a certain time.
This has always annoyed me:
 "It's his gun he can do what he wants." Yes he can, but should he?

[Eric Laird]

When someone presents their work on here, the lack of praise from the gifted/skilled/knowledgeable on here tells me much more than effusive praise from those like me....

[Eric Kettenburg]

Just going to add this:  I have seen guns here, or at shows I used to attend, that are built by 'hobbyists' or guys who may only build one a year, or one every few years, that are FAR better made and/or finished than the vast majority of American rifles were when new.

Most antique American lock inletting is a case in point.  And meanwhile now we have folks who are inletting sear springs with wood inside the bend of the spring...

I can see it from both sides, and we all decide how we want to approach building these things.  Thankfully, there's a place for everyone with all philosophies.  (That's my kumbaya moment for the year.  Now I have to go flail myself as penance  )

[runastav]

In Norway we have a saying (Janteloven, du må ikke komme her)Example, in Norway there is a black powder forum named (svartkrutt.net) there I  in years have shared a lot of gunbuilding/repers etc and so far no professional gunsmiths comments haha maby they are jealous
Runar

[rich pierce]

Just throwing this out there.

JP Beck, or #42, or a decorated Dickert.

OTOH:  Johannes Neff, or Peter Angstadt, or Stofil Long.

What is more interesting?  Who decides which piece is "finer?"

I would take any of the second group over any of the first group any day of the week and twice on sundays. 

Am I not 'seeing?'  Do I have bad taste? 

No, you just like to get down in Funky Town.