Back in the day...how common were: Long knives, trade knives, pocket knives?

[Salkehatchie]

Nagging question.  Had a conversation with a state archeologist a few years back on this topic.  And I believe I recall what he said, however.

Time frame...say 1750 to 1840.  Just to put one on it.  New info is always turning up.

But, this is "the" forum.  So, 'er goes.  How common/which was the most commonly carried of: a.) what we view as rifleman's knife, b.) a trade knife, c.) a pocket knife?

Thank you

[rich pierce]

B and C very common. A very rare, especially anything resembling what a rifleman’s knife being made today looks like. Look at trade lists.

[Brokennock]

Well,,,, that us a HUGE time frame...
But, exactly what Rich said, trade knives and folding knives would have been exceedingly common, especially compared to so called "rifleman knives" as Marketed today. Imported trade knives, folders, and "scalpers" would also have been far more common than the now popular local blacksmith made knife, especially with their folk art forge scale and tool mark "finish" trying to make them look "old timey."

If one looks to trade legers one sees that knives were imported by the barrels full, almost ridiculous numbers, both French and English.

[Elnathan]

How common/which was the most commonly carried of: a.) what we view as rifleman's knife, b.) a trade knife, c.) a pocket knife?

For the 18th century:
B and C very common, for sure. Folding knives are even found in American Indian sites in some quantities, albeit far less common than trade/butcher/scalper fixed knives, IIRC, and probably filled the "small knife" niche instead of the small fixed blades popular today. Table knives also seem to have been traded and used as belt knives as well, though I haven't looked into them in detail.

As for A, the modern "rifleman's knife" is a modern invention, particularly those Woodbury type with the poured bolsters, antler handles, straight blades, and maybe a crossguard. As for the broader category of domestically-produced knives, there was there is some limited evidence that they were made under specific circumstances in which the usual cheap trade knives were either unsuitable or unavailable, but overall they were likely very rare. There is the Fort Ticonderoga knife, which is indeed a blacksmith-made long knife, but is far cruder than the typical modern knife (every reproduction of it I've seen has cleaned up the profile considerably) and was probably carried by a musket-armed soldier as a dedicated weapon, not a frontier or rifleman's multipurpose knife. There is also an ambiguous reference in James Collins' autobiography to the South Carolina militia in 1780 compensating for the shortage of swords and butcher knives by reforging any good piece of steel such as sawblades they could lay their hands on into swords - it doesn't specify knives being made too, but it confirms that European-made knives weren't always available, and since it would be difficult to turn a sawblade into a workable sword without a LOT of folding and welding it may also indicate that knives were made as well as swords. So I do think that they were occasionally made, under circumstances which preclude them showing up in either the trade lists or in the archeological record (much), but they would likely have been rough and ready, copies of the standard butcher knives rather than their own distinctive type as they are today, and probably discarded once better commercial knives were available again.

It is probably worth bearing in mind that carrying big knives was not part of the larger Anglo-American culture, and that if a frontiersman wanted a backup weapon there were better options available. Swords are seldom considered in these discussions, but they were an important part of the broader Western military system at the time (line infantry were losing their swords by the second half of the century, but anyone not carrying a musket and bayonet still wore one, I believe), and in addition to being rather more useful weapons than a knife they also had a considerable amount of cultural significance. As such it shouldn't be to surprising that they show up in both narrative accounts and archeology often enough to indicate that they were a small but significant part of the frontier armory for both Indians and Whites. There is certainly a lot more justification for carrying an old infantry hanger or even a gentleman's smallsword as a "long knife" then there is for a fancy "rifleman's knife"....

[Tim Crosby]

 So all the "Belt knives" shown in Grant's and others books are not considered "Rifleman's knives" just "Belt knives".  Maybe it depends on what a "Big knife" is...

    Tim C.

[rich pierce]

Regarding the knives that are categorized as rifleman’s knives, country-forged old knives are hard to date unless they are dug at a site that can be dated. Provenance. Even then their usage is unknown. Corn knife? Butcher knife for butchering hogs on the farm?  I try to keep in perspective, how many “riflemen” were out and about relative to farmers in colonial and Federal periods? Are we thinking these knives were used in the Revolutionary War by soldiers? Hide hunters? What would or did the rifleman’s knife do that an English trade knife would not do?  I know we often portray the more romantic personas, and there was a big rise in frontier usage of daggers and stickers leading up to the Bowie knife in the first half of the 19th century. The users may have as often been ne’er-do-wells and brawlers as much as scouts and such.

Did rifleman’s knives exist? Yes. Common?  No, by all evidence. Did they look like Woodbury knives? It seems that maybe some did. It seems clear that poured pewter bolsters are an 1800s feature.

[Tanselman]

There are two surviving knives made by Squire Boone [based on discussions with Jim Dresslar who owned an original Squire Boone tomahawk that descended in the Boone family, plus Squire's original marriage license, among other Boone material]. A third knife in the KY Historical Society was allegedly Daniel Boone's personal knife, and it looks similar to the work of his brother Squire. Those knives appear to be large, rather simple butcher knives. They were used on the frontier in late 18th/early 19th centuries. We read about the Boones' earlier hunting trips into Kentucky, primarily to harvest deer for their hides for resale back east, and perhaps at times for meat. A butcher-type knife was likely the knife of choice for them.

Shelby Gallien

[James Rogers]

Trade scalpers, butcher knives, table knives and pocket knives. Riflemen would have chosen among those. Just like buckles and many other items we like to romanticize as hand forged one offs, these were professionally made in Europe and imported here by the thousands. The further you get to the end of the given time span the more one might see a riflemans knife or a couple years later possibly a specific issue of same to some riflemen. Not a lot of "day horns" "day bags" and patch knives about then either IMO.

[jrb]

Just 2 of Many that would have been in Sheffield, London, and Birmingham in the 18th century.

[Salkehatchie]

Well,,,, that us a HUGE time frame...
But, exactly what Rich said, trade knives and folding knives would have been exceedingly common, especially compared to so called "rifleman knives" as Marketed today. Imported trade knives, folders, and "scalpers" would also have been far more common than the now popular local blacksmith made knife, especially with their folk art forge scale and tool mark "finish" trying to make them look "old timey."

If one looks to trade legers one sees that knives were imported by the barrels full, almost ridiculous numbers, both French and English.

This reminds me.  There is a family will in Charleston, SC from a trader.  I will have to find and post.  It does mention, literally as you say barrels of knives!  And imported as well.   He was a French Huguenot btw.  Plus all kinds of other items. 

Need to put this on my upper tier to do list!

[jbigley]

OK... I am not an expert, don't claim to be one, and don't play one on TV. But I did some research, and found this in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann (who *is* an expert). Neumann had this to say about Rifleman's knives (calling them Belt Knives in his book):
"Just as the colonists evolved the European 'Jaeger' rifle into the Pennsylvania long rifle to meet the needs of the New World, so the sophisticated and specialized blades of Europe gave way in America to simple all purpose knives which could whittle, carve, skin, chop, stab, and scalp.
"The longer sizes are generally thought of as 'rifleman's knives'-since with the rifle and tomahawk they constituted the frontiersman's basic equipment. The blade often reached 12 or more inches, and could include a false edge (but seldom the sharpened clipped point of the later Bowie patterns). It was essentially a butcher's knife---having it's single edge and 'choil' create an off center appearance to the blade. The simple guard and hilt mountings are usually iron, brass, pewter, or silver, and the individualized grips were generally of wood (eg. hickory, maple, walnut, apple, cherry), horn, bone, or antler. The majority of blades were imported, but many were created by local blacksmiths, or fashioned from old file, saws, or swords. During the 1700s, they were commonly referred to as 'butcher' or 'scalping' knives. (Note: there was no recognized 'scalping' pattern; each colonist or Indian apparently used his regular knife for that purpose).
"Smaller versions of this belt type with blades of 5 to 6 inches were also popular, as evidenced by excavations from camp sites."

"Swords and Blades.." also illustrates photographs of 23+ "Belt Knives," with blade lengths ranging from 5" to 11 5/8", with most being in the 7" to 9" range.
FWIW --JB

[Elnathan]

OK... I am not an expert, don't claim to be one, and don't play one on TV. But I did some research, and found this in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann (who *is* an expert). Neumann had this to say about Rifleman's knives (calling them Belt Knives in his book):
"Just as the colonists evolved the European 'Jaeger' rifle into the Pennsylvania long rifle to meet the needs of the New World, so the sophisticated and specialized blades of Europe gave way in America to simple all purpose knives which could whittle, carve, skin, chop, stab, and scalp.
"The longer sizes are generally thought of as 'rifleman's knives'-since with the rifle and tomahawk they constituted the frontiersman's basic equipment. The blade often reached 12 or more inches, and could include a false edge (but seldom the sharpened clipped point of the later Bowie patterns). It was essentially a butcher's knife---having it's single edge and 'choil' create an off center appearance to the blade. The simple guard and hilt mountings are usually iron, brass, pewter, or silver, and the individualized grips were generally of wood (eg. hickory, maple, walnut, apple, cherry), horn, bone, or antler. The majority of blades were imported, but many were created by local blacksmiths, or fashioned from old file, saws, or swords. During the 1700s, they were commonly referred to as 'butcher' or 'scalping' knives. (Note: there was no recognized 'scalping' pattern; each colonist or Indian apparently used his regular knife for that purpose).
"Smaller versions of this belt type with blades of 5 to 6 inches were also popular, as evidenced by excavations from camp sites."

"Swords and Blades.." also illustrates photographs of 23+ "Belt Knives," with blade lengths ranging from 5" to 11 5/8", with most being in the 7" to 9" range.
FWIW --JB

That was the most anyone knew in 1973 or in 1995 (when the last edition was printed), and even then he remarks that the vast majority of excavated examples are simple trade knives, in his description of the lone example he illustrates. Since then a considerable amount of further research has been done.

Swords and Blades has actually held up pretty well over the decades in pretty much every other area, I believe.

[jbigley]

That was the most anyone knew in 1973 or in 1995 (when the last edition was printed), and even then he remarks that the vast majority of excavated examples are simple trade knives, in his description of the lone example he illustrates. Since then a considerable amount of further research has been done.

Swords and Blades has actually held up pretty well over the decades in pretty much every other area, I believe.

Thanks for the update. --JB

[Brokennock]

OK... I am not an expert, don't claim to be one, and don't play one on TV. But I did some research, and found this in "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann (who *is* an expert). Neumann had this to say about Rifleman's knives (calling them Belt Knives in his book):
"Just as the colonists evolved the European 'Jaeger' rifle into the Pennsylvania long rifle to meet the needs of the New World, so the sophisticated and specialized blades of Europe gave way in America to simple all purpose knives which could whittle, carve, skin, chop, stab, and scalp.
"The longer sizes are generally thought of as 'rifleman's knives'-since with the rifle and tomahawk they constituted the frontiersman's basic equipment. The blade often reached 12 or more inches, and could include a false edge (but seldom the sharpened clipped point of the later Bowie patterns). It was essentially a butcher's knife---having it's single edge and 'choil' create an off center appearance to the blade. The simple guard and hilt mountings are usually iron, brass, pewter, or silver, and the individualized grips were generally of wood (eg. hickory, maple, walnut, apple, cherry), horn, bone, or antler. The majority of blades were imported, but many were created by local blacksmiths, or fashioned from old file, saws, or swords. During the 1700s, they were commonly referred to as 'butcher' or 'scalping' knives. (Note: there was no recognized 'scalping' pattern; each colonist or Indian apparently used his regular knife for that purpose).
"Smaller versions of this belt type with blades of 5 to 6 inches were also popular, as evidenced by excavations from camp sites."

"Swords and Blades.." also illustrates photographs of 23+ "Belt Knives," with blade lengths ranging from 5" to 11 5/8", with most being in the 7" to 9" range.
FWIW --JB

That was the most anyone knew in 1973 or in 1995 (when the last edition was printed), and even then he remarks that the vast majority of excavated examples are simple trade knives, in his description of the lone example he illustrates. Since then a considerable amount of further research has been done.

Swords and Blades has actually held up pretty well over the decades in pretty much every other area, I believe.

Thank you. I was going to question when this book was published. I see a lot of reference to older books that have information that was surmised or assumed based on little information at the time. Much of this has since turned out wrong but still gets pushed as gospel.

[Brokennock]

Well,,,, that us a HUGE time frame...
But, exactly what Rich said, trade knives and folding knives would have been exceedingly common, especially compared to so called "rifleman knives" as Marketed today. Imported trade knives, folders, and "scalpers" would also have been far more common than the now popular local blacksmith made knife, especially with their folk art forge scale and tool mark "finish" trying to make them look "old timey."

If one looks to trade legers one sees that knives were imported by the barrels full, almost ridiculous numbers, both French and English.

This reminds me.  There is a family will in Charleston, SC from a trader.  I will have to find and post.  It does mention, literally as you say barrels of knives!  And imported as well.   He was a French Huguenot btw.  Plus all kinds of other items. 

Need to put this on my upper tier to do list!

Very interested to see that posted.
Thank you.

[jrb]

From "the Papers of Sir William Johnson" who was a British Military Officer and Superintendent of Indian Affairs.
Written by him Oct. 8, 1764, in his estimation of various trade goods that were gifted or traded to Indians in a year (in just the Northern Department.)
included are;
20,000 knives
10,000 raizors
10,000 axes
All manufactured and shipped over from England. This number doesn't even include the Southern Department or all the knives sold to Euro American settlers etc. And then you also would have had a HUGE number of French knives imported up until at least the end of the French and Indian War.

[Salkehatchie]

JRB:

Am going to have to dig through my files and load that will inventory up to the forum.  He was in Charleston, SC, French ancestry and there were barrels of knives.  Something like...1745 or something.  Earlier than my time frame above, but parallels your listing from up north.

[AZshot]

Generally, a knife has been the most important tool since the dawn of man.  Knives go back to Paleo times, and there were knives before there were guns.  I don't know what type of knife a particular generation used (the OPs dates cover about 4 generations), but I'm sure almost everyone who worked or traveled in town or country had a knife on them.

[Salkehatchie]

Good question.  I wonder how much blades changed during "my" time period above.

BTW.  Your comment AZshot reminded me of this little jewel.  Speaking of pocket knives.  I may have posted him before, but...'er goes.  He resides in a small, small town museum in central Missouri.  His donor and provenance are unknown.  Found in a box of arrowheads and other assorted items in drawer in the museum.

[Tim Crosby]

 Looks like it may have been used as a ball starter too.

   Tim C.

[Curtis]

Salkehatchie, I live near a small town in mid Missouri... can you tell me what town and museum the folding knife is at?  My wife and I enjoy these small town museums.


Thanks, Curtis

[Shreckmeister]

I’ve read a first hand account of a doctor from Massachusetts, who moved to Western Pennsylvania, in 1815 looking for a town to set up shop. He states that all the Scots, Irish and German inhabitants carried long knives.

[jrb]

"Long knives" might still describe common wood handled trade knives. The English "large" trade knives in 18th century lists seem to go about 7 1/2" for the blade portion and French about 7 3/4" long. I've seen 18th century British lists that use the term "long knives".  By the 1815 date you're referring to though i think? maybe there might have been more locally made knives becoming available??? Interesting

[Salkehatchie]

JRB:

My TN archeologist has mentioned that they have not found that many "bolstered" knifes until about the 1820 time frame.  I would suppose they know what they are talking about.  Most common are trade knifes, wood handled.  He has also mentioned that many that are found are...apparently well used Obviously sharpened till beyond reasonable usefulness. 

[rich pierce]

JRB:

My TN archeologist has mentioned that they have not found that many "bolstered" knifes until about the 1820 time frame.  I would suppose they know what they are talking about.  Most common are trade knifes, wood handled.  He has also mentioned that many that are found are...apparently well used Obviously sharpened till beyond reasonable usefulness.

Native American sites, or also forts?