Back in the day...how common were: Long knives, trade knives, pocket knives?

[Salkehatchie]

We were texting last week and he was at a blacksmith hammer-in.  Did not make a distinction.  When he gets back to me, will be sure to ask.

Good question!

[backsplash75]

Gents,
Looking back at store records, newspaper ads and etc. one will note that clasp/folding/cuttoe/pocket knives are frequently encountered at a significantly higher rate than non table fixed blade knives like butcher and scalping knives (the former frequently ordered in terms of dozens from England and a common commodity in non frontier as well as frontier areas, the latter something almost always associated with the Indian trade). This pattern shows itself in archaeology as well. For instance, even in a contested frontier fort area like Fort Ligonier, PA the following showed up:

Knives, Razors, Handles and Associated Items for Knives Recovered:
61; Studied: 56 (Plates 60, 61 ). Sixteen are clasp knives, three of them with markings on the blades. One has what looks like two small anchors or crowns and the numeral
2. Another has a cross-like impression, and one has a cross with the
letters OLD. It is possible that letters preceded this designation, as the
blade is broken off at the “O.”
Four scalping knives were found. Also recovered were three razors, one fleam, one draw knife, two table knives, two rat-tail knives, and
eight unclassified fragments.
Fourteen bone handles were recovered. Surfaces are plain flat, plain convex, and decorated convex. Decorations include parallel in- cised lines; criss-cross incising in a diamond-like pattern, and a series of recessed dots. A brass handle with a flowering-vine design is probably from a small
clasp knife...

Grimm. Archaeological Investigation of Fort Ligonier, 1960-1965.

in this particular sample (itself an imperfect snapshot of a single place), with a broad brush, you have 4 clasp knives for every 1 fixed blade butcher/scalper knife.

[Dan Fruth]

So how about some photos of period folding knives common to the period.

[backsplash75]

So how about some photos of period folding knives common to the period.

Grimm. Archaeological Investigation of Fort Ligonier, 1960-1965.

[jrb]

If the "cutteau" listed in the Fort Pitt Waste Book and other ledgers of Fort Pit, recording knives gifted or traded to the Ohio Country Indians is truly referring to folding knives, they also Greatly outnumber case knives.https://digital.library.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735061278424/viewer#page/1/mode/2up

[jrb]

[jrb]

This makers mark is listed in the 1787 Sheffield Directory. I think? this style began in the 18th century? Some, very similar to this shape was found in excavations at Fort Michilimackinac which ended by 1781. This one was found on a Native site in Michigan a few years ago.   

[backsplash75]

The images above from the series on French Knives in North America in the Journal of the Early Americas by Gladysz and Hamilton are great reads on the French styles and highly recommended.

[jrb]

Yeah, Kevin Gelinas has posted links here and there on facebook to His and Hamilton's 3 articles on French knives and 3 on French axes that were published in the now out of business, Journal of the Early Americas Quarterly. Really worth looking for if you use facebook. i don't want to link to them without his permission though.

[jrb]

This site has a small section of folding knives if you scroll down a ways and can ignore all the adds. It's also got sections on all kinds of 18th century objects, a really interesting site imo. https://www.scribd.com/document/274582394/Food-Service-Utility-Clasp-Knives

[jrb]

The one on the right has an 11" blade.     

[jrb]

fwiw, These slip joint , 18th century knives with the back springs- of the ones i can find that show clear photos of the backspring, always have a tapered spring and a parallel sided blade tang. Which is why i've been stuck all summer on how to make the blade  fit well in the 2 iron side bolsters.

[Brokennock]

......in this particular sample (itself an imperfect snapshot of a single place), with a broad brush, you have 4 clasp knives for every 1 fixed blade butcher/scalper knife.

Not arguing, as that is great information, just throwing this thought into the mix. Could some of this also be that then, as now, pocket knives were lost more often than sheath/fixed blade knives?

[Salkehatchie]

Been a week or so since I checked in.  Glad I started this thread!

11" blade...

And folding blades lost or just flat sharpened down to uselessness. 

Great posts guys!

[jrb]

Maybe after loosing a couple pocket sized folding knives they invented an unloosable giant version . what could those ever have been used for, i wonder?

[jrb]

Here's some spring folding knives from the French and Indian War era Fort Loudoun in Tennessee.

[jrb]

Toy knives?
 List of Goods on Hand for the Indian Department, Detroit, 5 September, 1778, Henry Hamilton. Haldimand Papers.
"36 Doz. Clasp Knives"
"16 Doz. Toy Ditto, enambled"

[backsplash75]

......in this particular sample (itself an imperfect snapshot of a single place), with a broad brush, you have 4 clasp knives for every 1 fixed blade butcher/scalper knife.

Not arguing, as that is great information, just throwing this thought into the mix. Could some of this also be that then, as now, pocket knives were lost more often than sheath/fixed blade knives?

The original question/timeframe is really overly broad to give anything other than a very non specific answer. That being said, I can tell you that in Anglo America from 1750-1800 for every imported fixed blade (non table) knife I have seen on multiple store and trade lists frequently there are dozens, if not hundreds of folding knives for every fixed blade knife. One can get into the whataboutisms with cherry picked trade lists during war time, gear used by men who made their living butchering animals, or offensive fitting out for tribes by the Indian dept, but the English were really churning out a ton of folders of various styles in this time frame and they were used by a wide swath of people for many different purposes.  So, as to the original question, clasp knives > fixed blade knives in quantities being sold/stocked/used.

The whole "rifleman's knife" in that wide time frame is a whole other ball of wax.

If you want to get into actual legit numbers/ratios the focus of the who, what, when has to be narrowed a bit.

[backsplash75]

Toy knives?
 List of Goods on Hand for the Indian Department, Detroit, 5 September, 1778, Henry Hamilton. Haldimand Papers.
"36 Doz. Clasp Knives"
"16 Doz. Toy Ditto, enambled"

Quick Reference

A term used in the 18th century for a small decorative article, such as a snuff box, which could be made in a variety of materials, including silver or porcelain. Birmingham silversmiths who specialized in making such small pieces were called ‘toy-makers’.

From:  toy  in  The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms »

Subjects: Art & Architecture

[jrb]

Great research Backsplash, that would help explain what Sir William Johnson was saying with "silverworks or toys, which the Indians wear of different kinds." I couldn't figure out if he meant trade silver jewelry or what. Thanks!

[Elnathan]

The original question/timeframe is really overly broad to give anything other than a very non specific answer. That being said, I can tell you that in Anglo America from 1750-1800 for every imported fixed blade (non table) knife I have seen on multiple store and trade lists frequently there are dozens, if not hundreds of folding knives for every fixed blade knife. One can get into the whataboutisms with cherry picked trade lists during war time, gear used by men who made their living butchering animals, or offensive fitting out for tribes by the Indian dept, but the English were really churning out a ton of folders of various styles in this time frame and they were used by a wide swath of people for many different purposes.  So, as to the original question, clasp knives > fixed blade knives in quantities being sold/stocked/used.

Do you know of a decent study of British folders of that period? I went looking for one about seven years ago and the only thing I found was a Shire Library booklet on penknives in general that didn't have anything very useful. Same issue with butcher knives - there are a lot of pictures floating around, but sorting out the difference between a 1755 knife and a 1780 knife is difficult because even archeological reports don't seem to make a distinction.

[jdm]

i remember reading somewhere  that a lot of everyday items In the 1750-1850 time period did not change much or a all. They were made and looked much the same with small changes.  Here are some pictures of some folders that I think would fall close to the original O.P. time frame.  The bottom knife  that remains folded has a makers name that would date it 1845-1855. It was made in  Sheffield.

Couldn't load pic will try again.

[backsplash75]

sorting out the difference between a 1755 knife and a 1780 knife is difficult

1755 vs 1780 is a tough nut to crack with many forms unless marked (Sheffield directory starts in 1774 as far as I know)...I'm not sure of a really good big book of pocket knives that is comprehensive for 18th century folders. The first really good "catalog" images that I know of are 19th century for English stuff. There are a range of them in the typical forms shown above and some really odd pen/fruit knives, seal knives, mohock knives, multi tool knives and etc.  One could certainly go off of the Sheffield maker's marks and xref that with dug items for date bracketing. 

a lot of everyday items In the 1750-1850 time period did not change much or a all

for some things yes, however folding knives don't seem to be one of them (a few pen and specialty forms aside).

 The folding knives off of the Arabia from 1856 are WAY different than the  mid 18th to early federal era knives, but there is some fuzzy cross over from say 1770 to 1800.

I will say with the bigger non pen/fruit knives you generally don't see nail nicks until the 19th century (although they are certainly around on smaller knives with less blade area to open way earlier)

Smith 1816



Fisherman's knife off of the Arabia ca. 1856

This pocket knife recovered from the Arabia has a very interesting maker’s mark. An image of a fish with the words "THE FISHERMAN'S KNIFE" is etched into the metal on the large blade. The name of the manufacturer is etched into the small blade, reading "G WOODHEAD 56 HOWARD ST SHEFFIELD" Many of the pocket knives found on the Arabia were produced in Sheffield, England.

[Brokennock]

Excellent topic.
Thanks for all the info Backsplash75.

[Clark Badgett]

Is there any published information on the French clasp knife usage in New France?