Author Topic: Can't stop the bore rust  (Read 5396 times)

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Oklahoma
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2023, 04:49:51 AM »
The gray on the patches is graphite. Also, the orange gunk could be your oil polymerizing. All oils do to an extent.
Psalms 144

Offline john bohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2023, 11:27:02 PM »
I blew compressed air into a barrel to dry it once and it turned orange before my eyes,flash over rust I think.

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Oklahoma
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2023, 03:13:44 AM »
I blew compressed air into a barrel to dry it once and it turned orange before my eyes,flash over rust I think.
That is something Iíve not seen unless the water was scalding hot.
Psalms 144

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2023, 07:50:18 AM »
Yes - that was flash rusting. The effect is accumulative. We had a friend who insisted on using boiling water to clean his rifle.
After years of use, it was mildly pitted one end to the other. We had to lap is twice to get it shooting well again and without needing to be wiped often.
Lapping was done with lead laps cast in the bore & fine valve grinding compound.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline HighUintas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2023, 02:11:57 AM »
Maybe I should discontinue my use of the air compressor, although I can't see it causing it if I rinse with distilled water.


I'm happy to announce I finally filled my archery deer tag! Do, hopefully I'll be able to get it processed in time to be able to participate in barking the squirrel prior to October's end. And, we'll then see if my barrel has conjured any rust.

Offline Marvin S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2023, 11:49:04 PM »
Unless you have paint booth quality air dryer on you compressor the air is full of water especially in high humidity areas.

Offline Carney Pace

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2023, 01:25:57 AM »
Following this thread;
Having been shooting flint locks for over 60years my 2 PENNYS worth.
STOP using WD 40
No air compressor
NO hot water
Cold water in a dish with a couple of drops of Dawn dish soap
tooth pick in touch hole or dry patch in pan with frizzen closed
3 patches sopping wet.
let set for about ten minutes
dry patch
then another couple of wet patches keep alternating wet and dry patches until clean
When dry and clean Oil bore with a GOOD firearm gun oil ---NO 3in 1 or WD 40
Check in 2 or three days

Carney

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2023, 01:46:14 AM »
Hoppe's #9 Nitro Solvent is the second best firearm specific rust preventative, with Ezzox being the best. Hoppe's #9 Solvent tested better than Hoppe's gun oil.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7779
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2023, 02:34:40 AM »
Agree on no air compressor. A lot of the time the air leaves an oily film on what ever you blast.

Offline okawbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2023, 02:35:14 AM »
Just cleaned a .36 caliber Bedford rifle after shooting 20 or so shots without wiping. Tried straight ZEP streak free glass cleaner. Ingredients are all alcohols. Sprayed some down the barrel and let set. The fourth patch soaked with the cleaner came out white! Never had that happen with water or any other cleaner. Barrel dried quickly with no flash rust. Iím sold on it. Used it today also on my 12 gauge flint turkey gun after several shots. Same results. Gets all the fouling and graphite out. No water needed.
As in life; itís the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2023, 07:13:08 PM »
"Flash" rusting is caused by scalding-hot water. At least that is the only time I "got" it, before switching to cold water at Holland and Holland's (British Gun maker's) order.
With cold water from the tap, I get no rusting & lots of time to wipe the outside dry, along with the cleaning rod, then apply dry doubled flannelette patches to the bore for drying.
It takes a total of 5 patches to clean my rifles or smoothbore. 4 of them will be re-usable next time.  1st one down the bore will be too dirty, the rest not so. The last patch, is the
oiling patch used with WD40 already sprayed into the bore until it runs out the vent or nipple seat.
That oil patch then blasts the excess WD40 out the vent or nipple seat (outside) & is used for wiping down the outside of the barrel & lock before reinstalling those in the gun.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 04:35:09 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2023, 04:39:14 AM »
Just cleaned a .36 caliber Bedford rifle after shooting 20 or so shots without wiping. Tried straight ZEP streak free glass cleaner. Ingredients are all alcohols. Sprayed some down the barrel and let set. The fourth patch soaked with the cleaner came out white! Never had that happen with water or any other cleaner. Barrel dried quickly with no flash rust. Iím sold on it. Used it today also on my 12 gauge flint turkey gun after several shots. Same results. Gets all the fouling and graphite out. No water needed.

Is that the ammonia free, or stuff with ammonia in it? I see the blue labelled one has ammonia, whereas the green labelled ZEP does not.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline HighUintas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2023, 09:41:34 PM »
Well guys, I don't get it.

After I had scrubbed my bore with a maroon 3m and then 0000 steel wool, cleaned it and rinsed with distilled water, dried following Daryl's procedure, I had no orange on my patches. I patched the bore prior to shooting yesterday and no orange. Just a bit of dark gray.

I shot about 20 rounds yesterday, using cotton patches with mink oil. My last load was a squib with hoppes BP cleaner/lube. I cleaned the barrel about 4 hrs later, using the same process and rinsing with distilled water. Orange on my patches! Aggh! I scoped the bore and it didn't look like any rust in the bore so I'm not horribly worried about it. But I bet it will get worse until I steel wool it again.

I don't know what is going on withmy orange patches, but I guess I'll just have to steel wool it every once in awhile.



First patch from cleaning bore. No orange, but the black would probably hide any if it's there

Patch from patching out the oil before shooting... No orange

Patch from drying the bore after cleaning


Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Oklahoma
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2023, 01:55:28 AM »
Thats from the patch lube. You arenít getting it completely out. This is why Iím glad I use a wad of Tow to clean with. Those little fibers scrub a dub really good.
Psalms 144

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2023, 04:14:10 AM »
Still using hot water, it appears.  That orange patch has not happened to me since I stopped using hot water. I would guess that was probably 1976.  I've shot a lot of powder and patched balls since then without any orange patches and I've used about all the "lubricants" one could think up, including "moose snot", Neetsfoot oil, Track's mink oil, Baby Oil. Ballistol/water mix and water soluble oil and water., moose milk(the artificial stuff. Can't imagine a cow moose allowing you to do that to her) - no orange patches.
After drying the bore (those patches have "some" grey on them). After drying, the final WD40 flushing patch comes out wet with WD40- no colour, pure white. I would suggest if that patch comes out coloured, as yours seems to be, the bore was not clean.
It takes 1 doubled flannelette patch to clean, and usually 4 to dry - each patch gets used twice, both sides, even the first drying patch. I will use the old "drying" patches 2 or 3 times shooting sessions. I just let them dry outside, in the stair well, where I clean my guns. I remove the barrel EACH time, dunking the breech in the stainless bucket of water, cleaning with about 10 strokes, then drying the outside with a towel, then patching out the interior until dry, then a flush with a LOT of WD40, then wiping down the gun and reassembling it, whether barrel keys or pins. Take your time and do it well.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 04:21:11 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline AZshot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2023, 05:09:36 AM »
Thanks for the tips. That's an important point on the city water. I have a water softener also, which could be influencing that.

I'll get some distilled water to do the final rinse before drying and see if that helps.

I'd say that's the problem.  But you switched to distalled water.  I'd now say don't use hot water.

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2240
  • Oklahoma
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2023, 06:08:56 PM »
I must have missed the hot water part.
Psalms 144

Offline HighUintas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2023, 07:32:53 PM »
Still using hot water, it appears.  That orange patch has not happened to me since I stopped using hot water. I would guess that was probably 1976.  I've shot a lot of powder and patched balls since then without any orange patches and I've used about all the "lubricants" one could think up, including "moose snot", Neetsfoot oil, Track's mink oil, Baby Oil. Ballistol/water mix and water soluble oil and water., moose milk(the artificial stuff. Can't imagine a cow moose allowing you to do that to her) - no orange patches.
After drying the bore (those patches have "some" grey on them). After drying, the final WD40 flushing patch comes out wet with WD40- no colour, pure white. I would suggest if that patch comes out coloured, as yours seems to be, the bore was not clean.
It takes 1 doubled flannelette patch to clean, and usually 4 to dry - each patch gets used twice, both sides, even the first drying patch. I will use the old "drying" patches 2 or 3 times shooting sessions. I just let them dry outside, in the stair well, where I clean my guns. I remove the barrel EACH time, dunking the breech in the stainless bucket of water, cleaning with about 10 strokes, then drying the outside with a towel, then patching out the interior until dry, then a flush with a LOT of WD40, then wiping down the gun and reassembling it, whether barrel keys or pins. Take your time and do it well.

Thanks for the tips. That's an important point on the city water. I have a water softener also, which could be influencing that.

I'll get some distilled water to do the final rinse before drying and see if that helps.

I'd say that's the problem.  But you switched to distalled water.  I'd now say don't use hot water.

I must have missed the hot water part.


I'm not sure where the hot water part came from, but I only use cold water to clean. I don't think I've said anywhere that I use hot water.

I just realized though that the line to the sink I get the water from does not go through the water softener, so it is just regular tap. But, this shouldn't matter since I rinse with distilled water

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2023, 12:12:30 AM »
Interesting. I thought you'd said you used hot water, somewhere. Hot water is the only time I EVER got flash rusting or yellow rust on the patch when drying.
What I said stands though, about rusting - it has not happened since I switched to cold water, no matter what lube I used, oil, water based or a grease - all cleaned up
with cold water.
Now, some say there is buildup with greases or oils. I cannot EVER see that happening with the easy loading loads I use. Thick patch and ball between .010" and .005" undersize
of the bore, even when using a .690" ball in my .69, with a .021" patch. You have to WANT it to get started, but once in the bore, it goes down easily.
The crown's design is MOST important.
Here's that .69.


These are the before picture with the machined crown that most barrel makers provide.



Here is the same muzzle with the emery/thumb-treatment.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12594
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2023, 03:05:01 AM »
Is is possible that you are not using a tight enough CLEANING patch in the bore?  As Daryl said, we use two flannel patches on a button jag that is reduced in diameter to permit the use of two patches.  A commercial jag that is advertised as for a .50 cal. is too large to use two patches.  Turn it down another .015".  You should have to work at getting that doubled patch down the bore and out again.  If they are not tight, they are not going to the bottoms of the grooves and into the corners of the rifling.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9834
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2023, 04:19:08 PM »
The gray on the patches is graphite. Also, the orange gunk could be your oil polymerizing. All oils do to an extent.

I use Swiss which, so far as I know, is not graphited. I believe the gray I get is black iron oxide since if set aside for a day or two it turns to red iron oxide. This comes from info I got from Bill Knight years back on how the powder gases react with the iron/steel barrels.
But graphite is part of the fouling when using graphited powders since its ignition temperature is higher than the burn temp of BP and it does not combust.
I agree the orange stuff is weird. But I donít use any commercial patch lubes the only one I remember was  Old Zip which DGW sold, maybe still does. It was tallow and maybe a natural oil added.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline HighUintas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2023, 11:54:08 PM »
Is is possible that you are not using a tight enough CLEANING patch in the bore?  As Daryl said, we use two flannel patches on a button jag that is reduced in diameter to permit the use of two patches.  A commercial jag that is advertised as for a .50 cal. is too large to use two patches.  Turn it down another .015".  You should have to work at getting that doubled patch down the bore and out again.  If they are not tight, they are not going to the bottoms of the grooves and into the corners of the rifling.

I did have the jag double patched when cleaning for the first stroke, but had a really hard time getting it down and out while keeping the vent hole in the bucket of water, so I switched to single patch. That's with my turned down jag. I'll figure out a way to do two patches next time.

However, it doesn't make sense that would be the cause, because the orange was on my drying patch immediately after rinsing with distilled water.... Almost like it flash rusted in a matter of a few minutes even though I used distilled water to rinse. Before drying it, I noticed no orange on the cleaning patches.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15373
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2023, 12:31:22 AM »
Still, really strange occurrence. I agree with Dan's assessment on the orange as in iron oxide = rust. I get the same with my drying patches. If it was graphite, the patches would most likely
be still black or grey the next day. However, they turn orange.  I still use them for my next cleaning session & I have witnessed no adverse effect from this.
My WD 40 patch, used to blast the excess out the vent or nipple seat, and for wiping down the outside of the barrel, remains white-wet with WD40. There is no colour on this patch. I assume
if there was graphite in the rifling, this patch would come out with grey streaks as well, due to the solvent/carriers. It has no grey on it.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2023, 05:22:53 AM »
Like the rest of you I use cool or tepid water to clean, pouring the barrel full then dumping 3 or 4 times. Then wet patches until the residue is a light grey. I then use dry patches until dry. I then run a patch soaked in original formula WD40 down the barrel. I turn the gun barrel pointing down for a half hour to a full hour. I then run the WD40 patch down once again with no additional WD40 added. I then take and coat a patch in my lube blend of 50/50 T.O,T,W. mink oil and pure neatsfoot oil down the barrel to put a fine coat of grease down the inside of the barrel. I never have a rust issue but then again living in the Pacific NW we don't have the weather and humidity issues some have to deal with. Just one old guys thoughts.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline HighUintas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
Re: Can't stop the bore rust
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2023, 05:36:45 AM »
Very strange indeed. And... I live in dry Utah!