Can't stop the bore rust

[Habu]

Bill Knight's suggestion for similar fouling was to clean with turpentine or mineral spirits.  Might be worth a try.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I cannot see how distilled water can make any difference.  If you are not getting the barrel completely dry, it is going to rust.  Distilled water is still water.  I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

[HighUintas]

Yes Taylor I understand what you mean. However a bit of wetness left by distilled water shouldn't cause rust as badly as mineral or chlorine laden water.

I don't think what I'm seeing now is from it being left a little wet after cleaning. If it is rust, it seems it's flash rust for some reason but it's not left on the steel surface.

The patch to remove the oil before shooting had no orange and there was no rust in the bore before shooting when checking with the scope. After washing the barrel (double patch washing this time and boy was it tight) I immediately double patch dried it and the patch was orange. The cleaning patch was just black, not orange. It is either something to do with the mink oil, or the oil I use for rust prevention, or I'm getting a small amount of flash rust after washing for whatever reason.

[Daryl]

I've been using tepid or cold tap water since about 1976, or so and have never had any rusting from or with it, no matter what I used for lube.
Your 'deal' is anomalous to me.

[PAhunter]

 Flash rust happens....fact of life. cold water let it sit in the barrel for a few, dump out then run a patch or two till there clean. oil with motor oil. I never had rust using this process. Store your rifle muzzle down and stay away from bore butter. my patch lube is 40% bees wax and 60% Crisco. This might help. Good luck.

[SouthernStyle]

Ive shot for 60 years, and I don't think much of WD40. The finest anti rust gun oil I have used is G96. That stuff coats and gets into pores and micro scratches better than any general purpose oil. It will stop any rust in your bore.

[Daryl]

Whether you can get by with WD40 or not, depends on your humidity.
Perhaps another way of saying this, is your humidity determines your requirements for an anti-rust agent.
Since we've never had any problem, except for those guys trying Ballistol (rusted their guns) as an after cleaning & drying oil,
none of us up here (Av. Humidity 50%) have had ANY rust after using WD40 for the same thing - after cleaning and drying.
Thus, I would suggest anyone who lives in an area with higher average humidity than 50%, should use a 'proper' rust preventative.

[Clark Badgett]

Whether you can get by with WD40 or not, depends on your humidity.
Perhaps another way of saying this, is your humidity determines your requirements for an anti-rust agent.
Since we've never had any problem, except for those guys trying Ballistol (rusted their guns) as an after cleaning & drying oil,
none of us up here (Av. Humidity 50%) have had ANY rust after using WD40 for the same thing - after cleaning and drying.
Thus, I would suggest anyone who lives in an area with higher average humidity than 50%, should use a 'proper' rust preventative.

I’ve never had a single metal object rust with Ballistol, whether tools kept in a non climate controlled work place or my gun safe in my non climate controlled garage here at home. I can guarantee the humidity in Kentucky, Indiana and Oklahoma is for real.

[Daryl]

2 guys here did, with Ballistol. Taylor thought maybe the Ballistol he got from the guide and outfitter might have been contaminated, so
buddy Ron bought a brand new bottle of it and used it one evening after cleaning and drying his ML. It was rusty in the morning & it wasn't
THAT humid as it was at Hefley Creek.
I have seen in print many times Clark, exactly what you are saying, however Taylor's and Ron's experience speaks volumes to me.  When you
think about it, is or can a water soluble oil, even remotely be considered a rust preventative? It certainly will not keep moisture off the barrel
if it mixes with water.
That brings up the question, is there a Ballistol that is not soluble with water?

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, all Ballistol is water emulsifiing. As are many quality machining coolants. In fact, about 99% of all gun oils are made from mineral oil, as are many trusted greases. Just what ingredient in Ballistol would cause rust in approximately 1 out of every 10,000 users guns?

[Daryl]

Don't know Clark.  I am assuming, for both of these fellows, there was a humidity spike (I think it was raining all night for Taylor and his rifle was hanging in the T-Pee.
Ron's was in the box of his truck. Neither got water on them, but both were rusted in the morning.
I am aware that machine cooling oils are water soluble. That is the reason I would never try one to keep water off the steel.
Even WD40 works better than that. I've been using just that, since 1976 or so. Before that, it was G96 or that synthetic developed for the US Army in Viet Nam - the name escapes me.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Clark:  I don't thing it is an ingredient in the Ballistol that CAUSED the rusting...it was the moisture in the air which the Ballistol did nothing to protect against.

[Daryl]

Good catch, Taylor. I missed Clark's thinking I had said the Ballistol itself had CAUSED the rusting.

[Scota4570]

I would not use Ballistol as a serious rust  preventative.  OR, any light oils for that matter.  I also never use animal fats or "natural" anything.  I do not risk my guns to historical correctness. 

As far as possible water left in the bore there is a certain way to get rid of it.  Dry alcohol.   Use fuel line treatment that removes water as a bore rinse.  HEET and ISO-HEET are 100% alcohol that are sold in auto parts store.  I poke a little hole in the foil and it dispenses nicely.  I pour in about half an ounce and tilt the barrel to work it on all surfaces.  I then pour it out and patch dry.  You will have a squeaky clean and dry bore after that. 

Then use a real deal rust preventer.  I like LPS-3.  Fluid film, RIG, Boeshield are all excellent.   There are others of course.  Use grease not a light oil. 

When I clean a rifle for storage I do the above.  I have never had any rust.  The rinse and grease scheme maybe overkill but will give a good base line. 

IF the bore has been etched a little by the rust consider polishing it.  Micro rust pits attract more rust.  Flitz and Semichrome will leave it gleaming. A highly polished surface is less likely to rust.  Maybe start with that. 

[Daryl]

I did a test some time ago, using various polishing compounds and found Flitz and AutoSov to be about identical in producing a shine, that was not
measurable with my mic, which runs to .0001". I 'ran' it on one spot on a mild steel shaft for about 4 minutes with each solvent, on a narrow patch,
replenishing the polish often. Nice polish from both, but not measurable as to removed material.
I was able to remove a measurable amount of metal using various 'loading rod' materials, from stainless steel to fiberglass which was pretty much
like a rat-tailed file, with only 40 strokes - about .006" to .008"IIRC. Mind you, the pressure area was only 1/4" wide.
A hickory rod from one of my rifles, just polished the surface - no measurable wear. Something on the order of .001" to .002" was removed using a stainless rod, but .0000" with drill rod
as well as nylon.
Of course, this is another subject.

[HighUintas]

I started this thread last year and thought I'd give an update.

I was never able to solve this riddle cleaning with water. The cleaning patches would be black or gray and no orange. Then I would dry that bore IMMEDIATELY after rinsing and I'd get orange patches. After patching the oil out of the bore after a period of storage, there wouldn't be any orange, or at least no increase in it. That makes no sense. The best I can figure is that my barrel loves to flash rust when water is involved.

I cleaned my bore this time with Hoppes BP cleaner on patches. I didn't remove the barrel from the stock. I just soaked patches in that cleaner and ran em down the bore. It didn't take that long nor did it take that many patches. After dry patching, with zero orange patches, I looked in the bore with my scope and found nearly every trace of fouling is gone, whereas when cleaning with water there would be bits left in the small bore imperfections that I couldn't get out.

I'd rather not have to buy a cleaner.... I like the simplicity of water in a bucket. However, this was much more satisfactory to me than what I'd been doing so I guess I'm going to start patching out my bore with Hoppes BP cleaner instead of dunking it in a bucket.

[Daryl]

Found your problem  - "whereas when cleaning with water there would be bits left in the small bore imperfections"

There are no bore imperfections in my bores. All the fouling comes out with water- 1 patch, then 4 to 5 for drying.
All patches are doubled flannelette material, purchased by the yard. It's cheap and cleans beautifully, due to being
doubled & it's tight. All of my rifle's bores have square-ish rifling. No rounded rifling and all are .008" to 012" deep.

[HighUintas]

Found your problem  - "whereas when cleaning with water there would be bits left in the small bore imperfections"

There are no bore imperfections in my bores. All the fouling comes out with water- 1 patch, then 4 to 5 for drying.
All patches are doubled flannelette material, purchased by the yard. It's cheap and cleans beautifully, due to being
doubled & it's tight. All of my rifle's bores have square-ish rifling. No rounded rifling and all are .008" to 012" deep.

Your bores must be mirror smooth then. Have you ever looked at it with a bore scope after cleaning? I would wager there's imperfections in all ML bores. After I washed w water (super tight patch pumped up and down for a long time) the patches would eventually be white. No grey. So it would seem by looking at the patch it's totally clean. Look at it through the bore scope... There's some dark colors in the imperfections.

[Daryl]

Could be, but you get rust, I don't. Rusting caused by hot water cleaning the bore, where the cleaning patch comes out and before you can put in a 'drying' patch, the bore rusts, is
caused by the hot water. This "effect" is accumulative, in that the rust pits that are left in the bore, get deeper and deeper to where the entire bore, muzzle to breech is mildly pitted.
A friend of ours used to insist on cleaning with very hot water. After he passed on, Taylor ended with that rifle. We lapped it twice with a lead lap cast in the bore and now the bore
loads and cleans up decently.

[HighUintas]

Could be, but you get rust, I don't. Rusting caused by hot water cleaning the bore, where the cleaning patch comes out and before you can put in a 'drying' patch, the bore rusts, is
caused by the hot water. This "effect" is accumulative, in that the rust pits that are left in the bore, get deeper and deeper to where the entire bore, muzzle to breech is mildly pitted.
A friend of ours used to insist on cleaning with very hot water. After he passed on, Taylor ended with that rifle. We lapped it twice with a lead lap cast in the bore and now the bore
loads and cleans up decently.

But I only use cool or cold water, never hot. I think the only time I don't see the flash rust when cleaning with water is after I've ran steel wool or a 3m pad through it, but I can't remember for sure if that was the case or not.

Maybe I'll put up some pictures sometime soon of what I see after cleaning with water vs the Hoppes cleaner. Regardless of the cause, at least I've found something that seems to work for this barrel.

[Daryl]

Well, quite interesting. I've had a bunch of different guns and especially barrels over the years, but have never had any rusting since stopping with the hot water. That
was on my original rifle, a TC .50 cal. After 1974, no more rusting after cleaning. All the gun writers back then, used to recommend boiling hot water. That's what I used until
I read H&H's (from England) letter to my friend, a double gun collector. They refurbished a cap lock 6 bore SxS all and shot gun for him. The returned gun was bored to 5 bore
with perfect bores. They sent along a letter, explaining cleaning with cold tap water only, then patching that out to dry, then using a water displacing lubricant (suggested WD40)
so that is what I used and have been ever since. I've had muzzleloading barrels of 12L14, 1137 and 4140 since then and none have rusted after cleaning or after drying.
Immediately after cleaning, I dry the outside of the barrel and cleaning rod, then run dry patches into the bore and out, reversing to the other side and doing that with 3 or 4 patches
until they grab hard on the retrieval showing the bore is dry. Then I liberally spray WD40 down the bore(s) until it runs out the nipple seat or vent, then I double up a clean piece of
cloth, then run that down, blasting excess WD40 out the vent or nipple seat, then run that up and down a few times then out. I use that one to wipe down the outside of the barrel
then reassemble. The lock is cleaned with a toothbrush and water, then blown off with compressed air, then sprayed liberally wit WD40, then shaken off, wiped off and replaced into
the gun.

[NDduckhunter]

I started using windex when I was in my teens in the 1980’s. Originally it was used to clean my surplus .303 rifle that I used cheap extremely corrosive surplus ammo in. That ammo was so corrosive I would literally wipe the bore every day for a week to try to stop it from rusting and it would always come out with some rust. Some older guy I met told me to use windex, that something in it neutralized the salts. So I started using a wet windex soaked patch as the first patch down the pipe then would wipe clean with a couple dry patches and cleaned as normal afterwards. Sure enough no more rust. Now with black powder I might start off flushing the barrel but at some point I’ll run a windex patch down the pipe and haven’t had any issues.

[HighUintas]

Daryl, I've used your exact process many times, even swabbing that wd40 out and using a good rust inhibitor after. Nothing with water has worked yet. So, certainly you can understand this is a strange case.

Here's a couple batches of the bore today after patching our the ballistol



Near breech



Other places

[Daryl]

Yes, puzzling. Last two really SHINE!(on my screen)