Author Topic: Original longrifle prices  (Read 7414 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2023, 01:52:24 AM »
It took me a couple decades for me to figure out collectors don't like to be asked who did the restoration work on thier guns. I have been told there was no restoration more times than I can remember when the work is visible when you know where to look. These days I just look at their guns and say "nice gun" and move on down the line. Everybody stays happy that way.
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Offline eastwind

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2023, 02:06:17 AM »
Yes, I considered the ASAC society, but as I said, they consider all arms, even up to 1960s. I was only thinking of a group focused on pre-Civil War arms--the start of manufactured machine-made arms. And not another "social club", but more of a study group. I have nothing against social clubs or the ASAC, just don't think they fill the void specializing on early firearm history appreciation. By the way, putting their publications online is to be commended, KRA doesn't, as Scott mentioned.
Man at Arms magazine is a good general source, but they are a broad brush also, not an advocate for early guns only. With roughly 14,000 circulation I wonder how their reader's subject interest is broken down. Maybe due for a study - then again their advertisers may not want to hear it.

Muzzle Loaders magazine may be the purest of the lot, yet even here they rightfully talk a lot about building, restoration, and shooting - related subjects fer sure but not a study group.

AZ got it right - "early arms aren't popular because there isn't much written about them". I wasn't suggesting more writing, although we have along way to go in that area. Think books on Upper Susquehanna guns, or Lehigh, Bucks County, and all the other areas of study not published in any credible form.

One of the ways to illustrate my point is when the State of Pennsylvania, encouraged by some Lehigh County, Jacobsburg collectors suggested the state assign the Pennsylvania long rifle as the "official rifle of Pennsylvania", kinda like the official flower. The information submitted to a local state representative was historically wrong. I called some I knew at the Pa Historic Commission in Harrisburg. They said they had no control over historic matters with the State legislation. So I wrote the Governor - he never responded - but the Philadelphia Enquirer called me and wanted to know what was wrong with it. I gave them my opinion. Their response was "what authority can verify my information"? Having no one better I suggested the KRA, but I figured it would be better for an ex-KRA President with more clout than me to get a solid response. I won't mention who - but the KRA response was something like - it wasn't within the KRA's purview (my words).
   The Allentown Call newspaper also called me, as did the Harrisburg, Reading, and Lancaster papers, all wanting some kind of independent opinion with some authority. They went with what I told them, supported by friends who also wrote and called. In the end, under pressure from a few of us, and the bad press, the sponsoring State Delegate looking rather stupid had the wording changed in the Bill which finally passed. I think you will now find the House Bill in the records, washed down, but accurate enough and curiously combined with the Piper Club airplane as the Official Pennsylvania Long Rifle and Official airplane in one bill.

In short, no one credible source existed to convince the public (the press), that the Pennsylvania rifle was indeed an item of historic importance worthy of recognition. By the way, Scott Gordon was aware of this fiasco, in case you want more inside info.
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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2023, 02:07:46 AM »
I'm in complete agreement with Eastwind and I'll add my own take on the subject as someone who is not a collector of long rifles (at least not those made in Pennsylvania or the south). As collecting matures provenence and untampered with condition are becoming more and more important. Unfortunately, American longrifles are probably the most tampered with artifact in gun collecting. This, by itself, has kept me away from them even when I could afford one. I have a small collection of NE rifles but those, being the red-headed stepchild of collecting, are far less likely to have been altered, modified or over-restored.

As many of you know, I'm affiliated with Man at Arms for the Gun & Sword Collector magazine. In the past 32 years you could count the articles submitted to us on American longrifles on you fingers and likely have a hand left over. Quite frankly, longrifle collecting is virtually invisible to anyone outside the "inner loop". There is some very good work being done now with primary documentation but if it never sees the light of day outside a very insular community how in the world can we expect new people to develop an interest in them?

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2023, 02:42:09 AM »
Just on a positive note, Man at Arms magazine quite a number of years ago (don't ask me or I'll have to go dig out the issue) had an absolutely wonderful article on Thomas Earle.  I was very impressed.

The bottom line is that opening up the vaulted doors of the KY rifle community to a much wider audience is also going to open up much more critical research, critical examination and overall criticism in general.  Thus far, apparently this is not particularly desired.  It's happening nonetheless whether desired or not, because human beings can't help but to inevitably croak and their inheritors tend to go for $$$ and sell off collections.  Subsequently, the auction houses get their mitts on these things and since virtually everything is available visually and instantly now with the click of the 'return' key, it's all eventually going to be out there warts and all.  I see this as a net positive (not the croaking part, but the all out in the open part).
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2023, 02:58:06 AM »
Quote from Eric K. “It has also been my experience (just speaking for myself and some others with whom this has been discussed previously) that because the majority of the arms are privately owned, it has generally been considered rude or inconsiderate to challenge/contradict what the owner believes.  This is something of a turn-off to potential collectors who (again, IMHO) may wish for a free and open discussion of something and would prefer not to feel the need to walk on eggshells.

I think going forward, as has been the case for some time now, the most coveted and sought pieces are going to be those which have not been touched and have escaped the loving attentions bestowed upon so many of their unfortunate brethren!”
[/quote]


  I agree with your assessment of this first paragraph and earlier statements questioning why KRA is so closed. I’ve at times hesitated to express my thoughts for fear of offending a gun owner and becoming pariah to him and those he holds sway with. If you did that 4-5 times you might have no friends remaining at all in this tiny community. It hasn’t bothered me much because opinions are like _______s, mine included. I gave up the need to be right some time ago, but I will say this IMHO. I’ve heard many talk about how rifles untouched in the black are the cats meow, but I’ve seen many more dollars spent by the buyers of slicked up shined up.  I do wish the KRA would open up a bit. By no means wide open but moving toward inclusion.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2023, 03:32:58 AM »
By the way, Scott Gordon was aware of this fiasco, in case you want more inside info.

I remember it well!
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2023, 03:42:05 AM »
I’ve at times hesitated to express my thoughts for fear of offending a gun owner and becoming pariah to him and those he holds sway with. If you did that 4-5 times you might have no friends remaining at all in this tiny community.

I am so interested in these comments, which a number of people have shared on this thread, since it is what I have long suspected. (I am not a collector of longrifles, so have no personal experience of this.) Controlling access controls a lot more than that, often in subtle and sometimes in not such subtle ways.

When this topic has come up before, list members who, in their professional lives, are necessarily involved in the peer review process often contribute some remarks. The peer review process has flaws and can be abused but, in my own opinion, is necessary to ensure good research. When I write articles and submit them to journals, anonymous people assess them and submit comments. It is a lot of work for journals to recruit these experts (who are not paid, and for whom it is a chore), and it is often humbling and even painful to receive the comments (because who doesn't think their own work is perfect in every word!). But the process always improves the piece of writing and, sometimes, prevents bad stuff from being published.

I don't expect such a system to happen in this instance. But the more push back, the better. Always. If the claims about an object can be defended or substantiated, they'll survive the push back.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Buck

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2023, 04:12:53 AM »
Patrick,

As always, excellent. The additional contributions to the discussion were excellent as well, one of the best threads IMHO in quite sometime.

Buck

Offline jdm

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2023, 04:27:22 AM »
[quote author=Eric Kettenburg
Just on a positive note, Man at Arms magazine quite a number of years ago (don't ask me or I'll have to go dig out the issue) had an absolutely wonderful article on Thomas Earle.  I was very impressed.

Eric, I beleive that article was written by Fay Parker.  Along with the bio of Earle there was a period painting of him that Louie had along with a rifle made by Thomas Earle.

JIM

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2023, 01:51:41 PM »
If the claims about an object can be defended or substantiated, they'll survive the push back.

I want that on a shirt.  ;D
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Offline eastwind

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2023, 10:55:31 PM »
    I’m glad to see Joe Puleo join in, as he is on a unique perch at Man at Arms magazine to observe the big picture of the business of antique guns. Particularly interesting is his comment on long rifles being the most tampered-with guns. He is right. No doubt that has put off many potential collectors. Unfortunately, the simplicity of the construction of our earliest firearms lends itself better to being “mucked” with than many other guns, particularly foreign guns of the same period, leading to so many questions of condition. Joe knows that and therefore has stayed in a safer zone of collecting. His point of the lack of writing extended to long rifles in his magazine is also well-taken. This ties into Scott’s comments about peer reviews, etc., and the challenge to write any kind of opinion, waiting for the critical onslaught. Writing anything in any kind of complete form to make a point is hard work and I wouldn't expect any scholar to do so without some kind of payback. And IMHO if you are going to write anything for peer review or the general public you gracefully take the flack - or you shouldn’t be writing.
   If you look at the literature on the American long rifle, you would be hard-pressed to find any of it from the hand of a professional historian. Almost all of the long rifle knowledge in print or online comes from amateur writers, gun guys usually talking about their favorite regional area of study or their own personal collection. Nothing wrong with that, as a lot of good information comes from such sources. The current danger is the sole reliance on the use of the internet, without a foundation of historical knowledge, but I digress. Ironically, the easy “mucking” of long rifles is the same basic reason it's just as easy to write about them – who will know? Pity the poor newbie collector who doesn’t know who to believe. And since there is no central source of knowledge to dispute an amateur opinion, one has to believe it, therefore more misinformation is perpetuated.
    Joe Kindig, Jr. wasn’t a professional writer, and his book isn’t about the American rifle, it is about his collection, with no mention of guns in other collections. Henry Kauffman was the major researcher of the Kindig book – the files in the Lancaster Historic Society prove that out and he claimed (to me) to have written most of the text. In his book, Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, he doesn’t talk about his collection, he talks about the history of the gun.  Ever wonder why Kauffman’s book came out the same year as Kindig’s?
   For fun, go back to that period in the 1960s. Imagine a society of some authority existed to critique Kindig's book and in the process promote the book, nationally in scholarly outlets, those beyond the gun community. This effort would soon be followed by a similar review and promotion of Kauffman’s book and further national recognition of the contribution of the long rifle to America’s culture. Now imagine that this theoretical national society, unbeholden to anyone, was free to criticize any book/article as being historically inaccurate, self-serving, or lacking in some other deficiency. Beyond a simple mention of a new book, have you ever read such a balanced review in the KRA, Bulletin, or the ASAC Bulletin? To its credit, Man at Arms Magazine did some “friendly” reviews, but I think they lost their book critic, maybe Joe can address that.
  Not long ago, members of this Forum expressed strong opinions criticizing a recent rifle exhibit’s catalog/book. Much of the criticism was merited, but wouldn’t it have been helpful to hear honest opinions from a cadre of qualified historians who have studied the period's history and arms?
   Possibly, I’m putting too much emphasis on the value of such a society and its unique ability to nationally promote long rifle history, but my instincts say the question of acceptance of the long rifle would be a whole lot easier had we had an unbiased platform, upping the standards of study and further defending the perception of the long rifle as more than just another gun, as Winterthur calls it. 
Patrick Hornberger



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Offline 120RIR

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2023, 12:04:01 AM »
Just a related anecdote...a J. Dickert rifle with a starting bid of $5,000 didn't sell at Heritage Auctions the other day.  That rifle was supposedly in RCA Volume 1.  I didn't follow the auction so I cannot say, but I presume the bidding did not get into the stated estimate of $8,000-$12,000. 

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2023, 02:07:16 AM »
Further to the above...
Yes, our book reviews were mostly written by the late Herb Houze. Herb wasn't a "longrifle guy" but he was both widely read and was an enthusiastic proponent of the value of primary documentation, to the point where he may have offended some authors. That said, my official title is "technical editor". As such I read all the articles looking for technical flaws (like mistaking etching for engraving or saying thus-and-such was made of cast iron when it was malleable iron...etc.).

Eastwind makes a very good point when he comments on the amateur qualifications of most gun authors. Again, there is nothing wrong with that (I'm one myself) but there are pitfalls. The worst are accepting "gun show lore" and expressing personal opinions as facts. A new collector (and some experienced collectors) have no way of recognizing this.* The only thing that is unquestionable is primary documentation and, by necessity, this is often lacking with early American guns of any type. I make every effort to apply academic standards...which means articles must have footnotes and those must reflect either primary sources or, if the sources are secondary, are identified as such.

*In all fairness, I should add that academics also do this...very often citing long outdated research or authors that were guessing. They may even do it more since often they are not personally involved beyond a limited point. All of this skates along the edge of subjects I'd rather not discuss on an open forum but suffice it to say that the informed collector must be both critical and skeptical...and, if you need an auctioneer's description, you probably aren't qualified to be buying at auction.

Offline BFox

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2023, 03:28:51 AM »
Great discussion.
I handle most of the distribution and publicity for the Kentucky Rifle Foundation books and photo collections so I thought I'd add a few observations based on my admittedly limited experience.
The KRF was founded as a not-for-profit organization to promote research and increased awareness of role the American Longrifle played in our country's early history. We sponsor/publish books such as the two volumes by Bob Lienemann (in collaboration with Scott and others) on Moravian gunbuilding. These are good examples of in-depth historical research paired with detailed commentary on the guns shown and with discussion of why certain conclusions were reached, even if it revises earlier received "wisdom." We have also contributed seed money to a number of other books. (Muzzleloader magazine was mentioned as one of the better sources of information in the topics it covers. I think that is a reflection of the caliber of authors Jason solicits and his emphasis on citations so that readers can judge for themselves how credible the underlying research was.) Our photo collections are an attempt to address the oft-cited complaint of non-KRA and non-east coast collectors and builders that they have few opportunities to study originals.
The KRF also puts on longrifle displays in various museums and historical societies and we are always looking for new venues. We co-sponsor a youth gun building scholarship with Muzzleloader to give young folks who are interested a chance to learn from contemporary master builders. Finally we are a co-sponsor of the Gunmakers Fair at Kempton along with a display of original rifles, which allows interested non-KRA members to see originals up close and personal, often for the first time.
I have to admit that my experiences in trying to get our books into museum gift shops, was very similar to Patrick's. Most bookstore managers, even at museums who are focused on early American history and material culture, are reluctant to buy books that they think would only appeal to a limited audience. My best luck has been to contact the curators or senior management who seem to be more attuned to the overall mission of the museum. However, I do have to say most of the museum research libraries do have our books, and many our photo collections.
I also know that the KRA is trying to shed it's closed reputation, so I would encourage and any collectors who are genuinely interested in the longrifle to contact the KRA about joining.
Just a few thoughts.
Bernie

Offline utseabee

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2023, 03:08:39 PM »
   As a relatively new collector of longriles, I buy them because I enjoy them not as an investment. I purchase the ones I can afford and have a small collection at this point. I set up at or attend several if the small shows and attend the KRA convention.
   Most of the shows that I attend are open to the public like the Eastern PA Longrifle show, Knoxville show, and Alabama show. Even a lot of the closed or private shows only require a pre registration, you just have to contact the promoters and you can attend. The quality of the rifles at these shows is outstanding. People are really missing out on a great opportunity to see these original rifles if they don't attend one of these smaller shows. Most of the people that set up are willing to share information and will often let you handle their rifles. Unfortunately,  these shows often have a very low attendance from the public. Why don't many people attend them? I can't  answer that, but it's not because they are closed or restrict entry.
   I was accepted into the KRA three years ago. My experience so far has been great. I have found the most of the members there to be helpful, friendly, and have always felt welcome there.
   I believe the lack of interest is due to a change in culture where history is not appreciated near as much as it used to be, not because the community is closed or exclusive. Just my perspective as someone relatively new to collecting.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 01:22:33 AM by utseabee »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2023, 03:17:15 PM »
Does anybody have attendance information about longrifle exhibitions at museums--the Berks County longrifle exhibit (2009-10) in Reading, the Lancaster longrifle exhibit at Landis Valley (2012), the Kindig exhibit in Reading (2014), or the more recent one at Rock Ford (2023)--compared to other shows that these institutions have offered? Such exhibits are a lot of work for everybody involved, but they are the sort of things that put Pennsylvania longrifles on a par with other objects from early America that the general public seem to value more (and recognize as art forms).
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2023, 06:01:49 PM »
Some of the thoughts presented here are new to me. I’m considering the impact of promotion of the lack of it. I think that the colonial and pioneer days which were a constant theme in movies and TV until the 1980s is long gone from the general interest of the people. The Last of the Mohicans and The Revenant were the last of a genre that reached many years ago. It’s been Star Wars and futuristic and apocalyptic stuff that interests the majority of the public now.

With the way guns are used nowadays (when I grew up they were for hunting) they are not going to be glorified going forward except by young men killing animated characters on play stations or X boxes or whatever they use.  One has to expect that a culture will change over 70 years or whatever span each of us has seen.

I have friends who are avid model railroaders; one a very successful creator of model railroad cars and locomotives. It’s aged out. Trains have no romance for anyone under 60 years old. Zero ways of marketing trains. Cars are a different story, but post-date the longrifle. 

How many people go to history museums? In St. Louis the Art Museum out-paces the History Museum by a lot, but the Zoo is the big man on campus.

I just can’t see the tide changing anytime soon. Obviously there will always be a small number of folks deeply connected to history through family history or being in a place where it happened. Some of them will have wealth and seek very important pieces for their collections.

In a recent Morphy auction I saw some 1960’s AR guns going for many tens of thousands of dollars. Someone mentioned that above.
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Offline AZshot

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2023, 06:49:50 PM »
Rich, good, concise way to say what I was trying to say.  History isn't popular, so historic things aren't.  Since the 20th century, people mostly remember 1 to 2 generations back.  That's why the 50s were emulated in the 1980s.  The 60s were revered in the 1990s, and so on.  Colonial times?  A blip on the radar for most.

Offline spgordon

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2023, 09:07:29 PM »
How many people go to history museums? In St. Louis the Art Museum out-paces the History Museum by a lot, but the Zoo is the big man on campus.

History isn't popular, so historic things aren't.

I think we're painting with too broad a brush here. There's tons of evidence that "our" period--especially the American Revolution--is still very popular, if presented in interesting ways. The new "Museum of the American Revolution" in Philadelphia had more than a million visitors in its first five years. For years after the "National Museum of African American History" in Washington opened in 2016, you had to get tickets months in advance to be able to get into it. The continued popularity of "Hamilton," now performed with traveling companies in many different cities at once, is obvious. I'm surprised at the continued popularity of colonial Williamsburg, which seems, still, a rite of passage for many, many American families (when I go, the place is filled with young couples with young children).

Whether collectors still collect objects from colonial America ... furniture, silverware, hardware, ceramics, guns ... that's a different matter.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 09:14:52 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline AZshot

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2023, 10:44:03 PM »
By "popular" I'm using the defintions "liked, enjoyed, or supported by many people" or "what is accepted by or prevalent among people in general."
I'm talking per capita, and relative to it's "popularity" 30 or 50 years ago.  I think most of us have noticed that most of the people under 50 in America never read history, don't know it, wouldn't be able to tell you if the fur trappers came before or after the Cowboys.  That is different than my parent's generation.

Offline dweber49

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2023, 11:08:28 PM »
How does one become involved with KRA?  It appears that you need referrals and recommendations.  In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner.  I participate in a muzzleloader group, but they all shoot Lymans.  Apparently they really don’t want anyone new.

Offline spgordon

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2023, 11:10:56 PM »
By "popular" I'm using the defintions "liked, enjoyed, or supported by many people" or "what is accepted by or prevalent among people in general."
I'm talking per capita, and relative to it's "popularity" 30 or 50 years ago.  I think most of us have noticed that most of the people under 50 in America never read history, don't know it, wouldn't be able to tell you if the fur trappers came before or after the Cowboys.  That is different than my parent's generation.

Yes, I'm using the same definition--which is why I pointed to "Hamilton" and the two new history museums that have been enormously popular.

Most people under 50 in America don't read much, period--history or whatever. So what you say is surely true.

But one of the reasons why many history museums have lost attendance is that they tell history badly. Back in the day, that may have mattered less because people went out of obligation. People don't do things out of obligation any more. So these museums need to do things differently. Turning a museum into frivolous entertainment isn't a solution. But telling stories in different ways, and telling new stories, is possible without that.

There's been a lot of writing in the popular press over the last twenty years about just this topic. This 2016 article is really good, I think: https://newengland.com/travel/new-england/new-englands-small-museums/

The Sun Inn, here in Bethlehem, has a small museum, which is pretty inert. It gets some traffic only because people visit the restaurant or during Muskifest. For the last year my research has focused on enslavement in eighteenth-century Bethlehem and, it turns out, quite a few enslaved men and women worked at the Sun Inn. Make our small museum at the Sun Inn into a  serious "Slavery in Bethlehem" museum and I'd wager it would be a destination for many tourists.

All of which is to say that well-done long rifle exhibits would bring the public in (as, I think, the recent ones I mentioned in a previous post did, though I don't have any attendance figures for them).
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2023, 11:54:25 PM »
How does one become involved with KRA?  It appears that you need referrals and recommendations.  In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner.  I participate in a muzzleloader group, but they all shoot Lymans.  Apparently they really don’t want anyone new.
Interesting.  I have been making these guns for 43 years and have never been invited to a kra function. I heard once that you need a sponsor to become a member. I don't even know a kra member so I figured they are just another good ol boys club and went on with life. Not exactly public friendly.
 I seriously doubt if the kra's existence makes any difference in the dwindling interest in KY rifles.  As has been pointed out,  the public has moved on from that period of history.
 I don't believe they even teach pre WWII history in high school  anymore.
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Offline dweber49

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2023, 03:42:24 AM »
I’ve been a collector of Native American Material Culture for around 30 years, and new to Pennsylvania Long Rifles.  NA items that I purchased 20-30 years ago, I would now be fortunate to get half.  And these are not “middle market” items.  The very best seems to hold up but not really keep up with inflation.  But as another poster stated, these are not investments.  Yes, the cost can certainly be in a cruise or European vacation range, but these are objects I have enjoyed for many years.  The recession of 2008-10 really knocked the bottom out of the arts market here in the Santa Fe area, and has never really recovered.  I really consider PA long rifles in the art category, whereas the Colts, Winchesters, 1911’s, etc are really collectables, rather than hand crafted, one of a kind art.  Hence my interest.

Offline Lee Jones

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Re: Original longrifle prices
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2023, 05:24:19 AM »
... In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner.
Pretty much the same for me in upstate New York. I collected most of my longrifles at least 25 years ago.