Kibler Woodsrunner - Lock Gap?

[Moof]

Hi Folks. I am working on a Woodsrunner kit and I am running into a gap between the bolster and the barrel. See below image:


I already tried cleaning up the mortice by soot transfer and cutting. However, that only moved the lock as far as you see in the previous image. The last couple of rounds did not close the gap any further and I am worried about removing too much wood from the mortice. I did notice that there are some contact points between the lock bolster and barrel, as can be seen in the following image:


I think my next step here is to remove the mainspring and diamond plate the bolster to flat? Any tips on that process? It seems like I am getting more into the weeds than is typical on a Woodsrunner build so I am hesitant when I start having to cut/file/wedge/etc things that most others have not had to.

Cheers

[smylee grouch]

Your next step-call Jim. 

[wibper]

Sorry, don't see any images.  You might try phoning Kibler.  They're very responsive to helping their customer gun builders with their problems.

[Moof]

Sorry, don't see any images.  You might try phoning Kibler.  They're very responsive to helping their customer gun builders with their problems.

Interesting. Added images to the post through the "add image to post" widget. I'll try again.

[Dave Marsh]

I don't think the imaging is working but you need to talk to Jim and not us.  You'll get a more harmonious outcome. 

[Gaeckle]

I'll bet it's not got the bolt in......take a C clamp and clamp it onto the lock in the place where the lock bolt is. Protect the wood side with a popsicle stick or some small piece of wood. Apply some compression with the clamp and see if the gap goes away.
The lock bolt really draws the lock in and you'd be surprised what a difference that makes

[bob in the woods]

I'd make sure that the barrel is fully seated at the breach first. These "kits" are virtually fool proof, but there is still some attention to detail required. Small adjustments are to be expected, since wood moves re humidity etc but I'd be very careful about doing any major wood removal . My Woodsrunner was the the easiest build I've ever done.

[Tim Crosby]

 Pix are there for me. Can you even get a piece of paper in that crack? TC

[wibper]

I see the images now.  No, that gap isn't right.  I'd second the advice above by Gaeckle after you make sure the barrel is inletted and seated properly, and the lock is also inlet and seated properly.  Screw tension alone shouldn't be used to overpower insufficient inletting.  That being said, the gap is very, very small, so it shouldn't take much - maybe just some light filing or sanding where you discover some high points by using inletting transfer marking.

[EC121]

In the picture the fence is touching the barrel.  Try drawing the front screw down some.  The gap isn't all that bad.

[Long Ears]

Holy smokes! Did you run a feeler gauge in it? .002 or less? Am I missing something? It will be fine.  Bob

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

How about a picture of the lock mortise after blackening the lock and tightening the bolts?

[Jerry V Lape]

If the lock isn't snugging to the barrel it may be tilted because too much wood was removed on the lower edge of the inlet. Or the inlet along the upper edge hasn't been quite enough.  Or the mainspring isn't inlet enough or is hitting the side of the barrel.  I doubt Kibler set it up with too shallow of an inlet for the main spring.  The last thing i can imagine is perhaps the inlets for the parts around the tumbler aren't sufficient.

[Jdbeck]

Pan edge doesn’t look parallel to barrel.… I bet the bolster is the issue. 6
You can clearly see the pan edge is not a straight line.. something is wrong with the casting/ CNC work.
You could file it flat but that would make the rest of the inletting to shallow— best to call Kibler and consult them.

[TDM]

By all means call Kibler’s. Most likely the lock mortise needs cleaning. It’s not a big deal.

[Moof]

Holy smokes! Did you run a feeler gauge in it? .002 or less? Am I missing something? It will be fine.  Bob

That may be the case. Feeler gauge indicates a gap of 0.005'', which is about half of what it was before I removed some material from the mortice inletting. Maybe that's acceptable? Been in touch with Jim on a few other matters, so should have it sorted out soon enough.

I'll bet it's not got the bolt in......take a C clamp and clamp it onto the lock in the place where the lock bolt is. Protect the wood side with a popsicle stick or some small piece of wood. Apply some compression with the clamp and see if the gap goes away.
The lock bolt really draws the lock in and you'd be surprised what a difference that makes

Bolts (2 lock bolts on the Woodsrunner) were in/snug when the picture was taken.

[Bigmon]

just call Jim Kibler, he will make it right.

[poppy]

candle smoke the bolster, tighten it down, take back off and see where its contacting the barrel, you might need to file or stone the bolster  a little, the smoke transfer will tell you.

[kutter]

Isn't the smooth face of the Bridle and some of the outboard surfaces of both legs of the mainspring , especially the lower leg, showing inletting 'smoke' missing from contact with the wood?
Click on the pic and then again to enlarge it.

Maybe it's just rubbed off from handling and has nothing to do with the problem.
But if those areas are contacting the wood they should have some clearance so the plate itself can draw down easily on it;s edges incl the bolster.

When you smoke the metal and get those very small contact marks as seen on the bolster in the pic, are you removing just those very small high spots with a scraper,,or are you taking a file and going across the entire surface to take them down?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Pan edge doesn’t look parallel to barrel.… I bet the bolster is the issue. 6
You can clearly see the pan edge is not a straight line.. something is wrong with the casting/ CNC work.
You could file it flat but that would make the rest of the inletting to shallow— best to call Kibler and consult them.

I submit that there is nothing wrong with the metal of the lock.  That camera angle is looking down on the concave pan at an angle which makes it appear as a curved line, when it is not.  I suspect that you have taken wood off somewhere that you shouldn't have, and have not taken wood away from the bottom of the lock mortise, where it needs a gentle scrape.  But until you talk to Jim Kibler, we are all just giving opinions.  This to me looks like a five minute fix.

[Moof]

Isn't the smooth face of the Bridle and some of the outboard surfaces of both legs of the mainspring , especially the lower leg, showing inletting 'smoke' missing from contact with the wood?
Click on the pic and then again to enlarge it.

Maybe it's just rubbed off from handling and has nothing to do with the problem.
But if those areas are contacting the wood they should have some clearance so the plate itself can draw down easily on it;s edges incl the bolster.

Mostly rubbed off from handling. Already cleaned up a few points of contact on the lock internals, and those first couple of rounds of inletting did close the gap approx half (~0.005'') of the initial (~0.010'') distance. As I mentioned in the OP, the last couple of rounds of inlet cleanup has not closed the gap any additional, which is why I'm pumping the brakes on wood removal for the time being until I shake loose any more ideas.

When you smoke the metal and get those very small contact marks as seen on the bolster in the pic, are you removing just those very small high spots with a scraper,,or are you taking a file and going across the entire surface to take them down?

No work has been done on the bolster face past a touchup upon the whole face with a 600grit diamond plate to remove a burr. Not enough work to begin to take down those contact marks.

[Long Ears]

Watch Jim's latest video. I now no why he recorded it. Trust us..Good luck.

[mgbruch]

Any gap is too much.

When I'm building a rifle and have that much gap remaining, I know what to do next, because I'm the one who built the gun to that point.  So this is another plug for contacting the person who built the gun up to that point.  Best to do that before doing something that might have to be undone.

[Dphariss]

I think a file and maybe some judicious inletting will fix this. From the photos I looked at. Kiblers kits are fabulous. But like anything it may need some tweeking. I.E. gunstocker/gunsmith stuff. The fact that the stock is wood means that its not necessarily 100% stable and just shipping it may cause it to move a little. I had a barrel channel cut by Dave Rase  6-8 years ago and when i got here the inlet was really big. Might need a C weight instead of B. Stood it in a  corner for a week and the barrel was almost too tight…. And it was not “new” wood.

[Dave B]

This is where getting out the prushian blue can be helpful and a square. The barrel should be square with the lock pannel with Jims quality work. That leaves the lock and mortice if the lock is not square with the barrel the inletting is too deep to keep the lock from tipping, shim the inlet. If the lock face is square then the bolster is not and it needs dressing down use the blue to find the high spots. Only remove areas of transfer on the bolster till you have a perfect mating surface. It is not complicated just tedious.