Author Topic: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel  (Read 2813 times)

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2023, 05:21:16 AM »
Daryl, have you ever seen a 52Ē long smokeless shotgun barrel?

Online Daryl

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2023, 05:55:34 AM »
Maybe it was for 2 shotguns originally, then an order came in for a long smoothbore?
The 5" enlargement is a puzzle, thus there might be a strange reason for it.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2023, 10:24:37 AM »
Dark Horse, did you read the previous comments that the barrel was not drilled for a touch hole?  It was never loaded or used.
Yes I did read that and it gave me pause at first. Then I thought that being not much is known perhaps the barrel was cut off just above the touch hole. Since your in unknown territory anything is possible.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2023, 05:57:52 PM »
Bob,
Just had a quick look at Hawker;

Barrel of musket bore,  42 " long.

Cylinder section,   
1 foot 10 1/2"

Relief at muzzle end,
one foot,

Open behind,
7 1/2".

Richard.


Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2023, 05:29:51 PM »
Thanks Richard.
Interesting internal boring. (I had copied several chapters of his book for reference and canít locate them on my computer.)
What does it mean ďopen behindĒ?

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2023, 05:58:45 PM »
It means what you have on your barrel, Bob.

The bore tapers wider to the breechplug, in the above case, for 7 1/2 inches.


Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2023, 01:22:53 AM »
Well thatís kind of fascinating Richard. I wonder where this Mr. Gallaghan got a barrel that used those old bore styles. Between the swell at the wrist, the muzzle treatment and the breech tapering  I think the man had something he was following. Thanks for your interest and help!

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2023, 05:56:05 PM »
It should shoot very well when you find the right charge, Bob.
I know W Keith Neal shot with some of these long 'duck guns'  and thay patterned Very well.
I recall when trying one, he got a single shot at a woodpigeon as it flew out of a tree at 70 yards, and down it came.

The theory of the enlarged chamber was to retard the charge until a more thorough ignition had taken place, and the relief towards the muzzle was to reduce pressure, so the pattern was maintained.  As we know, it is excess pressure that blows patterns.

Best,
R.
Edited to add that I have a Thomas Bannister barrel of roughly 1700, and of about 14 bore and 52 inches long.
When I get the bore cleaned up more I will attempt to measure it for you.
It may or may not be bored in this manner!

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2023, 06:12:52 PM »
Thanks again Richard.
I am wondering about loading it- using an overpowder wad may not work with the enlarged chamber; My thought is to use tow or something. Corn meal over the powder works well too. The shot loaded directly atop it.
I have been waiting for my clay target launcher to do some flying shots to see what I can do with it. Trying shot patterns on paper needs to be done. Itís just so boring 🥱
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 06:42:14 PM by Bob Gerard »

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2023, 12:03:14 AM »
Here are some first test runs I did today using 2f powder and two different loads.
I used equal volume powder and corn meal. I used my powder measure to measure my shot volume. Itís promising though I want to compare it with my cylinder bored Fusil de Chase.. (The box is about 7Ē square)





« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 12:41:37 AM by Bob Gerard »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2023, 12:30:17 AM »
If my memory serves me correctly, Espingarda Perfeyta or The Perfect Gun discusses the differing ways a bore could widen and constrict over its lengths, some configurations being quite elaborate. I don't think the authors go into a lot of detail about the rationale behind the differing approaches, much less discuss loads for them, but it might be worth checking out all the same.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2023, 12:40:30 AM »
I see "Espingarda Perfeyta Or The Perfect Gun" is available on Amazon.

Online Daryl

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2023, 01:45:07 AM »
Even at 33 yards, I'm seeing huge bird missing holes in the pattern, Bob.
Going to have to do a bunch more "work" on the load, I think.
A suggestion, if I might.
I remember years ago, the Sellier Bellet 12 bore ammo (& some Winchester) had an overpowder wad, that was cupped, that is the wad was creased about its' periphery, so it would expand
outwards into an oversized bore to seal.  You could make a form, out of wood(maple), aluminum or whatever, with a tapered entrance like a coned muzzle, to push an oversized card wad, either
12 bore or even 11 bore wad into, using an undersized short starter (3/8" or 1/2" in dia.) to make it form into the 'die", down to .693"(14 bore)  Placed over the powder, your larger rod tip
should flatten it out into a better seal over the powder. A couple of them, if thin, would suffice for an over powder wad, then one over the shot.
I'd lay odds this will out pattern the loads you have tried above.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2023, 04:17:11 AM »
This one is gonna take some time getting it right. I was a bit surprised it did as well as it did, even out to 50 yards, with just this first trial.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2023, 07:25:56 AM »
It is a good start Bob.

The best way pattern a gun is at 40 yards, measured for a start.
Have a piece of plain paper stretched tight, at least 4 feet both ways.  Or an iron plate which is better.  (it can be whitewashed between shots)
Put an aiming mark in the centre, and fire at least 6 rounds at it, of the same load.
Not at the same sheet!
Use a new paper each time.
By eye, find the centre of the shot pattern, and from that centre, draw a 30 inch circle around it.
Count the pellets in the 30 inch circle.

Deduct these from the full charge fired.  This gives you the pattern percentage .
Take an average for the 6 shots (at least ) to get average pellet percentage. A cylinder bore should produce a 40 % pattern if well loaded.

See what percentage you are getting, and how even the shot pattern is.
A good bird getting pattern has few 5 inch bare patches..   best patterns may have two or three still.
A wire can be made into a loop 5 inches across, and it can be run over that pattern to see how many 5 " gaps there are. One or two show up in the best of patterns.

Wadding.
Try rolled up soft brown paper if you don't have much else, or newspaper.   rub the paper to make it soft.
Roll it in a ball and ram it down.
Powder,
Try 2 1/4 drams if a 14 bore.  (about 60 grains)   Two drams may work fine, (54 grains) and should do so with an Ounce of shot.

Shot,
Try 1  to 1 -1/4 ounces.

For those that like big heavy charges of powder, this is the reason for blown patterns.

I have friends in the UK, who still use 2 drams in a 12 bore, and an ounce of shot for normal game shooting, and 1  1/2 ounces of shot and Three drams for geese.
The rule of thumb for gunning with black, is one dram (27 1/3 grains) to a half ounce of shot.
So,
You need 3 drams (about 80 grains), if using 1 1/2 ounces  of shot.

Forget 90 grain loads of powder. You can try it later if you like!

Don't bother with any filler.
It adds weight to the charge and just makes it kick more.

Use a bit of paper, over the shot, a small ball rolled up and rammed down, or, dry grass, or whatever, or a card wad If it will hold.
With your boring, you are looking for wads that will expand. Card wads can't expand.
Felt wads can work very well.
Tow is no good over powder, unless it is twisted very tight, or comes from an old saddle. Otherwise powder blows through it.

Try this Bob, and see how it does.









Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2023, 07:48:54 AM »
This is just what I needed to learn- Thank You Richard!

Online Daryl

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2023, 10:01:29 PM »
I use 75gr. (2 3/4drams)1F in my 12 bore London gun with 1 1/4oz. shot, no chokes.
I missed one bird out of 20 with that load, some years ago at Rendezvous.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2023, 09:13:58 AM »
If you'd used 2 1/4 drams you'd have collected that last bird, Daryl!  ;) :)

Online Daryl

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2023, 08:46:29 PM »
We'll NEVER know for sure, but maybe.  ;D
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Breech chamber question for a flintlock barrel
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2023, 08:44:27 AM »
You are quite right Daryl!