Multiple flashes in the pan failure to fire

[HighUintas]

This is a little off topic and I don't want to hijack the thread but haven't been able to find the info in searching. From what I'd read in determining my hole size was that 0.062 is a good place to stay because it's generally large enough for fast, consistent ignition but also gives you plenty of life for that insert before it gets too large and needs to be replaced. Also, there was mention of decreased velocity from a larger touch hole.

Are there any threads or links anywhere that show the effect on velocity going from a smaller hole to larger with the same gun/load?

[Daryl]

If when you load the gun, with the cock at 1/2 bent position, frizzen(hammer) closed, upon loading, lift the frizzen and see how much, if any powder is in the pan.
If there is powder there, you either need to enlarge the granulation size of your powder, or get a new liner.
When the vent is too large, you will lose part of the charge, out the vent.
I would suggest that if the vent is larger than .080", 3F would blast out the vent when the patched ball is seated. You might even lose 2F at that size.
At one time, the Brits sold rifles that were "self-priming" & this was thought to be a good thing.
All militaries of the world using paper ctgs., loaded with the cock at 1/2 bent and the hammer closed, on their flintlocks, as the paper ctg. also contained the priming charge.
The musket or rifle, was primed, then loaded. We don't do that these days, due to the possibility of the cock falling and discharging the rifle as it's being loaded.
However, you can test the size of your vent's powder loss, by closing the frizzen/hammer on an empty pan then loading the rifle as normal.

[smylee grouch]

One risky option. A mention of a slight cone was made. I did so when the gun was being built and breech plug was out of the gun. The WL liner  had been installed and I drilled it out to 1/16 then took a slightly smaller bit in a hand drill, run it in and VERY CAREFULLY as the bit was turning ran it and tilted it down cutting a very slight cone on the outside bottom and inside top of the vent hole. Then I repeated that with a 1/16 bit. If the bit had broken I could access it a lot easier with the barrel and plug separated. Both of those Rifles had English style breech plugs.

[AZshot]

I think my misfires were an obstruction that had been pushed down with the patched ball the first time, maybe just fouling.  Then it  got worse from fouling being poked in trying to pick the vent.  Each flash would add carbon to the hole and powder channel.  Finally I got enough fresh powder in there to fire.  Next time I take it out, I'm going to:

1. Do as some recommended and increase the amount of powder in the pan. 
2. Go back to FFFF for the pan.
3. Use the new, wider flints I bought that spark more.
4. Go back to the other can of powder I was using (in case that one was contaminated).

We'll see if that brings it back to the consistant firing it was before the last outing. 

[Darkhorse]

I'm not sure that will help because your already getting good spark, or Flashes in the pan. I think the problem is that flash is not getting to the powder. So based on my experience with my own guns and others with the same problem I will run through some of the problems I ran into.
When you pour your powder in it's bridging and not getting down far enough to catch a spark. My solution was to tilt the rifle and pour slower.
Back in the day when a flint didn't fire it was often blamed on a "Klinker" spelling varied, but it does prevent the powder going off. It is caused by firing a few shots then running a patch down the barrel to clean it, but what it was doing was pushing a layer of fouling over the TH blocking the spark. I carry a small amount of water and alcohol to the range and when I think a cleaning is needed I put a toothpick in the TH then pour enough water down the barrel  to cover the TH to about a 3/4" above it. Then run a very wet patch down fast. This will blow that crud out the TH. I follow this with a couple of dry patches also ran down fast. Then an equal amount of alcohol also pushed out by a alcohol soaked patched. This will serve to dry out  the water.  This is a lot of trouble but if it's needed I do it.
When working up really light loads the rifle just stopped firing. The reason was the powder column was so short it allowed the patched ball to block the spark. Previous posts have mentioned this.
A vent pick often helps but sometimes it pushes through fouling and you can feel the grains but no fire gets through.
I oil my locks with a touch of oil on a toothpick. Too much oil will migrate to the chamber area and soak the powder just enough so it doesn't ignite.
Years ago when I took my .40 to the range after finishing it my shooting was a total disaster. Too many flashes in the pan. After2 shots I couldn't seat my patched ball. I was very discouraged but I worked through the problems one at a time until they seemed to just go away.
Today I am more confident that my flintlocks will fire than I was with a percussion. A flintlock is really simple and most problems end up with simple solutions. It just takes a lot of shooting sometimes.
To get really good at this flintlock game the best fit this truth. You must know your rifle.

[Blacksmoke]

AZshot;  I am with Darkhorse now that I am re-reading your post.  I first suggested to enlarge the touch hole, but if it is not a vent liner than I agree that the flash is not getting to the powder charge.  One more suggestion is to chamfer the inside of the touch hole a bit which will bring the main charge closer to the flash pan. After you pour powder done the barrel you should see the granules of the charge in the touch hole looking in across the top of the pan.  If you do not see the powder granules, then tap the but on the ground a few times, then see if you can see them. If not there is your problem.  Installing a White lightening vent liner is your solution.  Hope this helps.  Let us know of the outcome,  Hugh Toenjes

[AZshot]

Thanks for the new comments, which I'll address:

This is a custom rifle and has no vent liner.  I just has a vent hole, like rifles 200 years ago.  It was coned on the inside. 

I think the light charge could be part of the problem, and the patched ball either got in the way of the hole, or pushed some fouling into the way.  So that's one more thing I'm going to be sure of, sufficient charge to be well above the hole. 

The misfires happened after I shot only 2 rounds, this being the 3rd.  I had not cleaned yet, but usually can get 6-7 shots out before.  I've never had a flash in the pan other than when I forget to pick the vent.  I did not forget this time. 

I'll take it out again this weekend.  Maybe up my charges 5 grains.  Thanks again.

[Daryl]

AZshot. I just did an experiment using a measure with in inside diameter of .490", so somewhat larger than your .45 bore, but with rifling depth & width, perhaps
close to the same volume, or still slightly larger than the bore's capacity. I poured into it a measured 45 gr. 3F, GOEX Old Enysford I think it is. This powder took up
.970" of the measure, thus unless your vent is that far up the bore, the ball was not covering the vent hole. Something like fouling must have been the problem.

[Scota4570]

Thanks both.  I've never scraped the breach, it's about 4 years old, has maybe 100 rounds shot.  It does not have a vent plug, Don doesn't build them that way.  It's just a coned touchhole.

There are two problems I see.  Clean the buildup off the plug.  Use a brass scraper.  There will likely be a bunch of fouling covering the plug.  IF the plug is notched or the vent is right at the plug face the fouling will cover the vent.  If the fouling is oil soaked all the worse. 

I would find a way to install a liner.  If the vent is located a little ahead of the plug, fine.  IF it is right on the plug face a milling machine may be necessary to move the hole.  Vent liners improve reliability. 

[Darkhorse]

You might consider contacting Don as he is the builder and obviously has a history with drilled vents. He should be able to help you out.

[AZshot]

I've written about all the parameters of my rifle above, but I'll sum up again here:
1. The plug doesn't feel to have any buildup.  Even if it does, the vent hole is about 1/4 inch in front of the base. I'll buy a scraper and clean "anything" that is there.
2. When I put a 45 gr load of powder in the gun, it filled up at least 1 inch past the hole.  So I agree, it's not the ball blocking the vent. 
3. The existing vent hole is coned, and is large enough to have created good ignition in the 2 years I have been shooting it.  It was ONLY this ONE time I was having problems. 

By deductive reasoning, I'm not going to start drilling on the rifle.  Not to enlarge the hole, not to install a liner.  Those are solutions looking for a problem.  I suspect contaminated powder, carbon blocking up the powder near the hole, or fouling.

[Daryl]

Since it worked fine for 2 years- leave it. I still think there was oil in the inside cone of the vent, which spoiled the powder and prevented ignition.
Had this happen to me at rendezvous, no matter how many times we poked & felt priming, re-primed and fired it, it refused for a LONG time. Finally
about the nth time we tapped the barrel and got fresh prime into the vent, the charge went off. No more problems.

[AZshot]

Thanks.  Sounds familiar. 

[Darkhorse]

I've written about all the parameters of my rifle above, but I'll sum up again here:
1. The plug doesn't feel to have any buildup.  Even if it does, the vent hole is about 1/4 inch in front of the base. I'll buy a scraper and clean "anything" that is there.
2. When I put a 45 gr load of powder in the gun, it filled up at least 1 inch past the hole.  So I agree, it's not the ball blocking the vent. 
3. The existing vent hole is coned, and is large enough to have created good ignition in the 2 years I have been shooting it.  It was ONLY this ONE time I was having problems. 

By deductive reasoning, I'm not going to start drilling on the rifle.  Not to enlarge the hole, not to install a liner.  Those are solutions looking for a problem.  I suspect contaminated powder, carbon blocking up the powder near the hole, or fouling.

This whole post reads like you have a problem looking for a solution, not the other way around. However drilling would be the last thing I would want to try. I agree with your suspicions mostly. I mentioned sometime back that oil can migrate and render the charge useless, patch lube can do the same thing. It happened to me once on a early season deer hunt causing me to miss a deer. It was caused by atmospheric conditions, hot and very humid. I actually noticed the moisture in my TH but was in a hurry and tried to ignore it. So I know what caused it. It has never happened again so I think you may have had a similar problem.

[rich pierce]

How’s it working now?

[AZshot]

Rich, thanks, I finally got out shooting Christmas eve.  It worked fine, every shot fired perfectly and fast. 
I was using the same powder as before, but upped the charge from 45 to 50 grains.  I changed to FFFF pan primer, and added a little more than usual to almost fill the pan.  Also, I'm using those new 3/4" flints that are almost as wide as the frizzen, amber.  Would get great sparks and lightoff. 

[Dphariss]

Frankly is my experience the FF and FFF are less than desirable for priming.
If you pushed the pick all the way through (I make mine from 1/16” brass rod and hammer a long taper)and primed the pan and the vent there is an issue.
If you clean with any petroleum containing product and do not make sure the breech is clean you will produce a material much like concrete. Don King tended to cup the breeches on his flint Hawkens, if good for 100-150 fps velocity gain. A friend bough some used and the rifle finally failed to fire and apparently the previous owner had allowed the cup to fill with powder fouing and it eventually reached the vent. This, when oiled, fired some more, oiled etc etc. makes a substance like black concrete. He had to debreech the rifle and literally break the stuff out with a hammer and small punch/chisel. I have a DK Hawken with a cupped breech and have shot it for about 35 years with no issue and no need for a scraper. TOW sells a really nice reproduction of a military “worm” that allows pushing a wet wad to the breech and twist it. If you have a vent liner it should allow the main charge to be seen in the vent after its poured in a clean barrel, and after loading in af fouled barrel. Main charge should be .035-.040 from the pan. If you have a liner that does not do this then the vent needs to be larger .078 or so. If you have simple vent it needs to be about .090 diameter.
Cleaning. Dunno how you clean but this works for me.
To clean I use the bucket method or I used the device that clamps over the vent to run a hose to the bucket. Or I plug the vent with a toothpick or other wood plug and pour in several inches water or even squirt is some windex or some Dawn in the water. Slosh muzzle to breech a few times (finger or thumb over the muzzle) dump, wet patch, repeat several times last couple with no soap. I will even use a 20 or 24 gauge brush on the bore when wet between the first 2-3 flushes.  Then I put in a folded/wadded wet patch and twist it in the breech. Wet patch till clean. Wipe mostly/completely dry opening the vet after a dry patch or two. I then replug the vent shoot in a good shot of G-96 aerosol. Let it run to the breech as I clean the lock. Then muzzle down on a multi folded paper towel to let this drain out pulling the vent plug. This will displace any moisture. Then wipe out most of the G-96. One dry patch and run it up and down 2-3 times it will be wet enough to scrub the bore just and protect it and after assembly stand muzzle down over night cause there will be some migrate out and you don’t want ir in the stock.  ALSO use thick cotton flannel as cleaning patchs and make sure its tight enough is the later wet patching to get the grooves clean. I tend to use a fairly loose patch large enough to bunch up on the return stroke as this will tend to run over fouling and then when it bunches up pull it up.
I have used G-66 then later G-96 for about 60 years on both sides of the Pacific (it was wet there) and never had a reason to cuss it. I cannot say this for WD-40.

[Dphariss]

I never prime lightly its at LEAST 2/3 full and for hunting ALWAY full. Light priming is chronic source of trouble. I sold a Don King kentucky back to DK once to pay a doctor bill (mistake). The guy that bought it was a light prime guy and ended up hogging out the vet on a rifle that worked perfectly for me in matches and hunting for several years. But he believed the myth that a light prime was faster. Its not and its FAR less reliable. Search for
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/articles/priming-powder/

He has other timing articles as well.

[okawbow]

https://thepipenook.com/peterson-tapered-6-pipe-cleaners-50-pack/
I use these before loading and as a vent pick.

[Daryl]

I ALWAYS fill the pan with 4F. I did use 3F for prime for a shot on the trail, only because I'd run out of 4F prime.
That time was when we filmed loading and shooting that 'charge'. I guess that shows it happened once. Yes it
went off just fine, but I still prefer 4F for prime.

[Daryl]

Rich, thanks, I finally got out shooting Christmas eve.  It worked fine, every shot fired perfectly and fast. 
I was using the same powder as before, but upped the charge from 45 to 50 grains.  I changed to FFFF pan primer, and added a little more than usual to almost fill the pan.  Also, I'm using those new 3/4" flints that are almost as wide as the frizzen, amber.  Would get great sparks and lightoff. 

I had a patch knife identical to that one that I bought from Track many years ago. I lost it, dag-nabbit.

[Marcruger]

My best advice is to make sure the bore is scrubbed well and dried before use with alcohol so there is no load contamination.  I use wet lube as per Daryl's advice, and therefore no fouling builds up on the breech face to absorb moisture and/or foul the touch hole.  I wipe the frizzen , pan and flint with alcohol on a rag or patch (but not bore) between shots.  I also use a pick on the vent after loading but before priming.  That way I feel the crunch of a well-compressed load, ensure there is a powder charge, ensure the vent is clear, and make a channel into the middle of the charge for the flash of flame.  I did not invent this process, I am just sharing what I was taught by a fierce muzzleloading competitor.  I hope this helps a little.   God Bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

Good stuff, Marc. I don't wipe the flint or frizzen between shots, nor prick the vent unless I have a flash in the pan.
I also never nap a flint unless I get a clach - no ignition of the pan of powder - or a very slow hangfire. Of course that means a missed shot
more times than not. I should take my flintlock shooting more seriously, I guess.
I see absolutely no reason not to use the routine you do though and it sounds like a good routine. I'm just a lazy loader/shooter, I guess.

[Waksupi]

When I get misfires, I scrape the breech, and reliable ignition returns. I have noticed accuracy starts getting a bit erratic before the misfires occur. On my fowler, I usually scrape the breech every ten shots or so. It's the only gun I have owned that needs it that often.

[Daryl]

Find, figure out then use what works for you.
I've never scraped a breech and have had over 100 shot days, on the trail. No wiping, no scraping.
So far for me, this works.