The Stripes In Curly Maple.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  I found a ML Project that the Individual lost interest in.  The stock has some of the most beautiful striping I've ever seen,  would love to know is there a way to make the stripes really stand out.  I'm really partial to the darker stains found on antique's. Mountain State Muzzleloaders (Cains Outdoor Store) has a dark stain that really looks nice,  but it hide's alot of the grain. Any suggestions?


                                       THANX  RICH

[Mike R]

The traditional way is to use aqua fortis with dissolved iron filings [or steel wool] and heat.  There are several gun building books out that can help you.  There are also stains on the market and I am sure someone here can help you with those.

[wbgv]

if you want the dark stripes to really stand out,after a good coat of aqua fortis has dried and blushed with heat,apply a coat of tannic acid,it will react with the iron,that aqua fortis has carried into the wood grain and will turn the stripes almost black ..really brings out the figure.

[Roger Fisher]

The traditional way is to use aqua fortis with dissolved iron filings [or steel wool] and heat.  There are several gun building books out that can help you.  There are also stains on the market and I am sure someone here can help you with those.

Yes, the heat applied really makes the curl pop.  I like then to use a mild app of colonial red then Potassium Permanganate in the low areas then maple stain rubbed out in the wear areas then EK's ol tyme boiled linseed oil.  Rub,rub,rub!  but I'm usually swimming up stream!

[keweenaw]

You can pop the stripes even more if you apply the tannic acid to the wood before you apply the aqua fortis.

[bigbat]

there is no substitute for aquafortis.  The look is deep and vibrant.  I put on 2 coats of AQF let it dry breifly,the rifle is assembled, slobber on a thick coat of linseed oil and blacken/darken the wood with a torch.  Don't burn it just make it dark,  This acts as a heat sheild.  Several of the best known rifle builders do it like this. let the oil sink in and work the surface back to the color and shade you want with steel wool.  Its a lot more work and alot more clean up BUT the results are worth it.

[Jerry V Lape]

Bigbat, want to be sure I have your sequence correct.   Are you applying 2 coats of Aqua Fortis, then a coat of oil before torch heating the wood while the oil is wet?  Or is the oil applied after the torch?

[Dphariss]

Bigbat, want to be sure I have your sequence correct.   Are you applying 2 coats of Aqua Fortis, then a coat of oil before torch heating the wood while the oil is wet?  Or is the oil applied after the torch?

Torch is not the proper way to do this, though lots of people seem to like it. Radiant heat works much better and will react all the stain since it heats the wood deeply and not just the surface as a flame will.
I have taken to using one of the electric paint strippers that looks like a blow dryer. It produces radiant heat and will heat to wood deep enough to react all the stain.
Use it on low to prevent scorching  edges and carving.

After staining


After the heat gun treatment. Wood heated till hot to the touch after heat is removed.



First coat of oil all the wood would soak up. Home cooked LS oil with Grumbachers III added.



After second coat.


Adding more and more stuff to the wood to stain it can result in the color not being a sharp and maybe even getting muddy looking. I use AF on maple and take what I get. Its always good if done properly. After oiling the color improve is a week or so. Modern clear finishes will not do this.

Dan

[bigbat]

I put linsed oil on over the whole thing and use a torch. The oil will fizzle and bubble. hold the torch back from your work and play it on the surface.  I take it to black (Dans pictures stop at a reddish chestnut color)  That is your choice.  My technique comes  from an Alaskan gun builder that I spent alot of time with and a well known rifle and knife builder from Kentucky (I am sure you can read between the lines)  Ken Gahagan used this technique on his last Hudson Valley Fowler after a bit of hesitation and coaking (sp) from me.  He was delighted with the results.  One word of caution all wood yields different variations in color.  Try it on a scrap.   A thick coat of linseed will protect the thin spots from scorching.  Play the heat, wear gloves and clothes that you dont care about.  I have spent hours in an Alaskan gun shop rubbing out a fine Kentucky that many people wouldnt want to pick up.  My horns have that same look to them. Many people want to stop short and everyone has their own ways of accomplishing what they want to get done.  (Dan, to say it is wrong shows your lack acceptance of how anyone else does accomplishes something, I wont drop names here but I am sure you would find this method used by more than several of the more well known builders of today.)  Many of us horn builders or gun builders have a certain look we are after a and achieve it a variety of ways.

[Ed Wenger]

I agree, AQF does a nice job of showing curl and like Dan, use a heat gun to blush.  This is a lot easier to control than open source flame.  The only problem I've had with AQF is that color is so dependent on the wood.  I've had some good results, and others that have turned out much darker than I wanted.

Another method that I've had really good results with is through stain.  Apply a coat of LMF Honey Maple and let it dry over night.  Then, apply a coat of darker stain (LMF American Walnut or Lancaster Maple for example) over the Honey Maple.  I apply the darker stain with one of those dauber thingys then wipe off immediately with a cloth.  This will allow you to control the darkness of the stain.  The Honey Maple creates some nice golden undertones and the darker stain really pops the curl.  

                 Ed

Bigbat...  Thanks for the insight and instructions.  I like the sound of what you described.  Are you using Linseed oil like you buy off the self from a hardware store, or something like cold pressed , pure linseed oil?

[bigbat]

it is just the generic linseed oil. It serves as a  buffer to the open flame.  The heat drives the oil into the wood and causes the curl to "really" stand out.  A tip that flares the flame would be better and safer (but what is safe when you are playing with fire??)  use a good thick layer of oil to protect the carved areas. Ken G said if I screw this up Scott I will come to WY and kick you >>>. I told him "Please try it on a scrap till  you are comfortable with it"

[Ed Wenger]

Thanks again, bigbat.  I'm going to give it a try!

      Ed

[Jim Kibler]

VAriflegun,

If you use sugar maple or good hard red maple, I don't think you will have trouble with it going too dark provided you start with an iron nitrate solution that isn't too high in residual acidity.  The more a stock soaks up the iron nitrate, the darker the stock will end up.  Soft wood will tend to go darker.  Wood with a lot of figure will tend to go darker as well because more iron nitrate solution gets soaked up by the end grain of the curl.  I personally have had more trouble trying to force a stock darker than having any end up too dark for my taste.  Like bigbat said, heating with oil will tend to produce a somewhat darker result.  Hope I don't offend anyone, but when you get accustomed to the look of a good acid stained stock, aniline dyes generally can be spotted from across the room.  There are a few people who seem to get acceptable results with them, but they are the exception.  I'm just trying to encourage people to consider giving iron nitrate (aquafortis) a try.  The final finish on a gun is a huge part of the final appeal a gun has.  Just an opinion (which I have no shortage of by the way Hope this might help.

Jim

[Ed Wenger]

Jim,

Appreciate the insight and information.  I agree, AQF is a great way to go and I love to use the stuff.  I recently made a batch of my own using metal from an old horse drawn manure spreader we having rusting in the woods.  I really liked the results I got.  I tend to use blanks that have a fair amount of curl in them and I suspect that's why some have gotten a little darker than what I want.  I find myself going back and forth between the AQF and the method I described above.  I think another thing I need to do is spend more time with the steel wool after I blush a stock treated with AQF.  Thanks again for the help.

         Ed

[Michigan Flinter]

Very interesting but I have one question. After you apply the AQF do you neutralize it before putting on the oil ? Any chance of one getting a green stock if that step is left out?  Thanks for the information I've learned so much off this sight.  Eric D. Lau   Riverdale Mi.

[Bioprof]

It might get darker if you don't neutralize, but it won't turn green.

[JTR]

I think it's Potassium Permanganate that turns a stock green if you don't neturalize it.

Curious, does anyone know of a solution that will turn maple black, both the curl and non-curl areas, Without Heat? And no, not flat black paint.

John

[jbtusa]

Has anyone ever used an electric heat lamp bulb for a source of heat?  Results? 

[pathfinder]

Haven't had purple crystals turn green,if I remember correctly,it was chromium trioxide that would turn green if not properly neutralized.My Grandpa taught me that A/F is the way to go on highly figured maple and Ashphaltum is used on Cherry,Ash and walnut,and also on lightly or "crotchety" grained maple(his official Polish term).He was a clock and cabinet maker and his stuff is still amazing to this day. He used to have us kids go out on a hot summers day and get the tar from the street cracks to make his stain with. Just disolved it in Gum spirits,porportions didn't really seem to matter,just played with it till it looked right. Then everything got BLO treatment.
His proccess works just as good on guns as it did on furniture.

[JTR]

Ooops! I'll stand corrected on my comment that Potassium Permanganate turns the stock green, and blame it on old brain fade!
John

[Joe S]

Has anyone ever used an electric heat lamp bulb for a source of heat?  Results? 

Heat is heat and the source is largely irrelevant.  All you need to do is heat the wood to 220-230 degrees to get the color change.

Radiant heat such as from a forge or wood stove, or forced air heaters are generally preferred over a torch because of the risk of scorching with a torch.  A heat lamp would certainly work, but I think it might be kind of slow.

[t.caster]

bigbat, I messed around with your BLO method last night and found the result pretty neat!

The wife said...IT STINKS! DO IT OUTDOORS NEXT TIME!

[Dphariss]

I put linsed oil on over the whole thing and use a torch. The oil will fizzle and bubble. hold the torch back from your work and play it on the surface.  I take it to black (Dans pictures stop at a reddish chestnut color)  That is your choice.  My technique comes  from an Alaskan gun builder that I spent alot of time with and a well known rifle and knife builder from Kentucky (I am sure you can read between the lines)  Ken Gahagan used this technique on his last Hudson Valley Fowler after a bit of hesitation and coaking (sp) from me.  He was delighted with the results.  One word of caution all wood yields different variations in color.  Try it on a scrap.   A thick coat of linseed will protect the thin spots from scorching.  Play the heat, wear gloves and clothes that you dont care about.  I have spent hours in an Alaskan gun shop rubbing out a fine Kentucky that many people wouldnt want to pick up.  My horns have that same look to them. Many people want to stop short and everyone has their own ways of accomplishing what they want to get done.  (Dan, to say it is wrong shows your lack acceptance of how anyone else does accomplishes something, I wont drop names here but I am sure you would find this method used by more than several of the more well known builders of today.)  Many of us horn builders or gun builders have a certain look we are after a and achieve it a variety of ways.

OK: Its wrong from my point of view then  .
My mistake.
Black stocks are not typical of the era.
I have never been able to get black with AF short of scorching the wood. The AF stain naturally produces the red, its iron making the color after all not the acid. So unless there is some way that the oil process converts the iron to a black form I don't see how the nitrate of iron can make black. If the oil is burnt dark as it may be, that might be an explanation.

Using a torch on the wood does not drive the heat as deep as radiant heat so it does not react the stain deep in the wood as well. Though I suppose the oil might help in this. This is just a fact and telling me I "lack acceptance" is not going to change it. At least this is what I was told by someone who has a considerable amount of knowledge concerning both stains and finishes.

Not fully reacting the stain, should it be very acid, may cause the stock to change color at some later date. So its also "not exactly right"  chemically either. This is why some people give up on AF stains and go with dyes and such.
So from MY perspective using a torch is "wrong".

Dan

[rich pierce]

Green stocks generally come from using chromium trioxide (magic maple stain), not AQF.  The reasons I know of to neutralize AQF are to prevent the acid in the stock from promoting oxidation of metal and darkening of oils in the finish.

[Seven]

Bigbat, are you saying that you coat your AQF stained stock with oil so that when using a torch you actually use the oil as a heat transferring agent (similar to when straightening arrows) so that 1) the wood doesn't scorch and 2) the heat penetrates the wood deeper?  I think that you are also saying that you then rub off all of the burnt oil and are left with a nice stain to the wood that is reminisce of the time period?  Thanks for the clarification.  -chad