Author Topic: Carving Design Advice  (Read 10328 times)

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #100 on: December 25, 2023, 12:09:26 AM »
Mike, I agree, two fine looking rifles right there. Didn't have nothing to say after he slammed that door in my face with the plastic rifle comment, well played Stoner! ;)

Offline Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2911
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #101 on: December 25, 2023, 12:26:49 AM »
Mike, I agree, two fine looking rifles right there. Didn't have nothing to say after he slammed that door in my face with the plastic rifle comment, well played Stoner! ;)
Absolutely no animosity from me. My biggest problem is that I’m very passionate about these contemporary Kentucky rifles. Sometimes too passionate. I love these things as the art form that they are as well as the stories that come from the creators of them!!!
 Merry Christmas brother!
W
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #102 on: December 25, 2023, 01:18:42 AM »
GROUP HUG! ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #103 on: December 25, 2023, 01:26:31 AM »
Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.
I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.




I don't build rifles, I do hang out here and look at all the great work though......and 100% agree that Jim's work is very distinguishable and contemporary. On an average day I think I could pick it out from across the room. He's an extreme talent and his execution at carving is unique for my eye.

I would challenge anyone to explain exactly what about the work shown above isn't traditional.


Jim,
       for my eye your carving style is unique even when compared to original rifles. It's unique in design and for sure in execution. I could go into more detail on the factors that form my opinion later. When I say I could pick one of your rifles out from across the room and referred to the work as contemporary...I simply mean the following. If a team of the best of the best at aging rifles to make them look 200 years old took one of yours and aged it to perfection....I could still tell it was your work. I mean zero offense in the term "contemporary"...I'm a huge fan of your work. Best Regards -Aaron

Pretty much everybody that succeeds develops a flavor or feel.  This can be said for Jud Brennan, Allen Martin, Hershel House, Frank House, Wallace Gusler, Brad Emig, Ian Pratt etc. etc.  You can spot any of this work from across the room!  Same can be said for a Dickert, Armstrong or a Beck.

Think of this as a language.  There are letters, words etc. that can be put together in beautiful / appealing ways and then not so appealing ways.  All of those mentioned are speaking the same language, though.



« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 02:10:02 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline aaronc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #104 on: December 25, 2023, 01:28:55 AM »
Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.
I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.




I don't build rifles, I do hang out here and look at all the great work though......and 100% agree that Jim's work is very distinguishable and contemporary. On an average day I think I could pick it out from across the room. He's an extreme talent and his execution at carving is unique for my eye.

I would challenge anyone to explain exactly what about the work shown above isn't traditional.


Jim,
       for my eye your carving style is unique even when compared to original rifles. It's unique in design and for sure in execution. I could go into more detail on the factors that form my opinion later. When I say I could pick one of your rifles out from across the room and referred to the work as contemporary...I simply mean the following. If a team of the best of the best at aging rifles to make them look 200 years old took one of yours and aged it to perfection....I could still tell it was your work. I mean zero offense in the term "contemporary"...I'm a huge fan of your work. Best Regards -Aaron

Pretty much everybody that succeeds develops a flavor or feel.  This can be said for Jud Brennan, Allen Martin, Hershel House, Frank House, Wallace Gusler, Brad Emig, Ian Pratt etc. etc.  You can spot any of this work from across the room!  Same can be said for a Dickert, Armstrong or a Beck.

Think of this as a language.  There are letters, words etc. that can be put together in beautiful / appealing ways and then not so appealing ways.  All of those mentioned are speaking the same language, though.



Same can be said for Dickert, Armstrong, Beck etc.  You can spot any of these from across the room, modern made or



Agreed  :)
- Aaron C
At the work bench.

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #105 on: December 25, 2023, 02:22:52 AM »
Stoner creek, absolutely right back at you my brother, there's never a time when I would think otherwise. Merry Christmas to you! and all our brethren here. If you can't have passion in life, that's a hole that can't be filled, it can only be filled by oneself.

Offline Johnny Danger

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2023, 06:17:41 AM »
Merry Christmas,

Is this more of what you mean by original work? It's a rough sketch of a J.P. Beck rifle carving.


Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2023, 05:45:25 PM »
That works for me.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7495
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2023, 06:18:51 PM »
The bold lines you drew are good for showing up good in pictures, do not use these for carving.  Believe it or not the thinner your lines are the more accurate your carving will be and much cleaner.   Al

Excellent advice.

Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7495
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2023, 07:01:40 PM »
So,

That poster is not traditional?

The carving design behind the cheek piece isn't.  Also, the carving design behind the entry thimble has some traditional elements, but it is just "floating" there.  It would be better if it flowed into the ramrod molding.

Ron
« Last Edit: December 26, 2023, 07:12:59 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline J.M.Browning

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2023, 10:38:06 PM »
I found this thread very interesting & informative I've read this daily finally true transparency has come to the surface !
Thank you Boone , Glass with all the contemplate I read with todays (shooter's lightly taken as such) , you keep things simple .

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2023, 11:02:57 PM »
Merry Christmas,

Is this more of what you mean by original work? It's a rough sketch of a J.P. Beck rifle carving.


I think this is a good start.  A couple things to consider...  You might want to not have your squiggly incised lines actually touch your main design.   It can get awkward when this is the case.  Oftentimes they diverge in a smooth fashion, but don't touch the main elements.

Also, you might want to look at the main c-scroll in the area nearest the cheek piece.  Somethimes it's best to not actually extend the upper curve all the way down the cheek piece ramp.  Cutting this short can help awkwardness in this area.

Offline Frozen Run

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #112 on: January 01, 2024, 12:53:05 AM »
I have probably used a V tool more than anything else in the past 43 years.

Do you drive the v tool like a graver but with mallet to cut in your design? Thank you.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2024, 01:43:07 AM »
Yes sir Mr Donald.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dwshotwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2024, 05:12:48 AM »


Still a work in progress. My proportions are a bit off and doesn’t match up with original (looking at the Wm Antes on pg. 97 of the first Moravian book). My progress is slow but it’s fun.
David Shotwell

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2024, 08:46:51 AM »
   I kicked a hornet's nest didn't I, lol. Isn't any gun built today a contemporary?  Carved or not carved.   Al
Alan K. Merrill