Carving Design Advice

[Dwshotwell]

Ok, trying to learn here and taking to heart some advice that was posted yesterday. I’m working on another Kibler kit and hoping to do some carving. My goal would be for it to look traditional and not modern, but also stay within my modest drawing and carving ability. The tang carving I used as inspiration was from a contemporary gun I saw posted here a few months ago. The cheek piece has already gone through a bunch of iterations. I started looking at some that were more S scroll based, and this grew out of that and some drawing instruction I received on creating acanthus leaves.

I also know that if these designs are ok, my lines still need refinement. I wanted to stop and ask before I put the effort into perfecting these in case (as seems likely) I’m starting over.

While not copies of originals, are these motifs traditional enough to pass as such?
If so, other than refining some kinks and smoothing some curves, are there other obvious spots that need to be improved?

[rich pierce]

Some say that one role of carving is to link and decorate transition areas. At the tang we have the breech transitioning to the wrist. At nose of comb, comb to wrist. Cheekpiece to buttstock. To me the best designs flow from an origin into another space. Certainly that is the case with carving behind a cheekpiece. It often flows from the “cliff edge” and uses that edge as part of the design. It’s the origin. Same with any carving, I think you want an origin and a sense of movement or flow into a new space. Maybe look at examples of Lancaster, York, Christian’s Spring guns with this concept in mind: origin, flow, transitions in the stock architecture.

[Bob Gerard]

The first thing I noticed is that your drawing around the barrel tang looks far too close to the mortise. The fit of wood-to-metal is darn near perfect as it comes from the factory and unless you plan on filing down the tang you will not have room for any type of raised carving there. That is unless you’re planning on doing insized carving there? Even so, it looks too close to the tang. I did some simple shaping work on a Kibler Woodsrunner and lowered the wrist profile a scad to allow some basic raised carving around the tang.
Keep it simple.
As for the design behind the cheep piece, I would erase that as it doesn’t fit that area at all.
But that’s just my thoughts; there are far more skilled and experienced men to here guide you 😉
P.s., there would be nothing wrong with copying from an original.

[Dwshotwell]

origin, flow, transitions in the stock architecture.

Ok, I see what you're getting at Rich. Particularly my cheekpiece drawing looks like it was dropped on there from above. Earlier iterations I think were better in this regard, with the curve seeming to extend from the cheekpiece itself. That got lost somewhere along the way. Good reason to try again.

And I see what Bob is saying regarding the tang drawing. It is indeed too close to the tang itself. It looks scrunched, and operationally would be difficult to carve so close to the tang itself.

[Dwshotwell]

Tonight’s re-do… trying to simplify what I think I’m seeing on a couple of originals.

[Jerry V Lape]

 I don't know of course what your carving experience may be.  But it appears to me you are trying to simplify the design to make it easier.  I think if you did put that pattern on your rifle  later you will regret not being a little bolder and with a more conventional layout.    I suggest you draw what you would really like to have on the rifle.  Then shape a piece of hard maple as the side of the buttstock, or purchase a couple from Jim Kibler, and practice that carving until your confidence is sufficient to put it on your rifle.  I have been carving for a while now and I still do the practice piece of each design used before going to the rifle stock. If you screw up the practice piece rasp it off and try again.  Don't work on the carving except when you are not distracted, and don't try to do the whole thing in one piece. I practiced carving my first rifle 4 times before I attempted it on the rifle.  It is passable.

[Bob Gerard]

And it might be better to draw them out on a full scale butt stock diagram on a piece/pieces of paper (rather than over and over on the stock).

[rich pierce]

It’s going to be hard to parse out in an online discussion. Regarding the new design behind cheekpiece: good choice of well- established overall design. However the body of it is flat, only encompassing 1/3 at most of the vertical space.

Each curve must flow in and of itself. So when you have a branch coming off the main element, the new curve must flow from the origin of the main C scroll to the end of the furl.

The tendril coming off the origin is almost never seen. Look at a Dicket and an Oerter and a Niehardt and see how much of the space is occupied by the main C scroll.

Regarding tang carving: I can’t see where the wide leaf element originates. It seems to be lying under the tang somewhere.


Do you have books or are you relying on online sources? It’s good to open a book and spend an hour making a full size drawing on paper of a design you like.

[Mike Brooks]

Well, since I started this I'll try to help. First off, there is nothing wrong with copying original work.
That being said, at the tang I like your scrolls, but not the leaves. The comb molding must not be pointed. Needs to be round. Refer to dickerts, Lehigh or Christians spring for the carving along the comb molding.
I'd go with a traditional back to back c scrolls for a base and add your own stuff from there behind the cheek.

[Dwshotwell]

Do you have books or are you relying on online sources? It’s good to open a book and spend an hour making a full size drawing on paper of a design you like.

I truly appreciate all the feedback and I'm going to keep trying, but it is a little disheartening. As I was working I had RCA #1 open to a particular rifle and, though I was not trying to copy it exactly I was trying to capture the basics. The reason for not copying is not that I have some need to be original - more about working with my limited skill set. Maybe it's just my eye for what works that is more limited. For sources I have RCA 1,2, both the Moravian books, Grinslade, and a few others - so that's not the issue.

Mike and Rich in particular - thanks for the specific points about what is working and what is not working. Reading those comments I can see where I'm going wrong.

I'll keep trying, and this time try to do a more true copy of an original, and give it some more time before I post again so you - all don't need to keep critiquing the same errors.

Thanks.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd use original carving as a base and add or change a little from that. There are people that develop their own "school" but that takes many guns to develop. Early on it's best to keep it simple then push yourself as your skills develop. A simply carved gun that is well executed is far more attractive than a elaborately carved gun that isn't well done.  IE: Crappy frosting on a good cake doesn't really help the cake., It will always be a crappy looking cake.
 I have/had several fall back carvings I used. For "southern" guns I fell back to the tang carving of the "Faber" rifle and made variations from there. I nearly always used a basic back to back C scrolls behind the cheek and then added from there.
 Late in my career I  got all caught up with Lehighs and Moravian guns....that's quite a rabbit hole. I generally stuck tight to the original decoration with very little deviation. I found those guns very enjoyable to copy. I need to get back to that stuff.

[Jim Kibler]

Yes, copy an original design.  There's really no other good option when beginning to carve.

Jim

[Dwshotwell]

Today at lunch I went through a couple of the books and picked two rifles where I like at least most of the carving all the way around. I'll be traveling a bit over the next few weeks, so I'm taking a sketchbook and some copies of those pictures and just going to try and repetitively reproduce what is there. Drawing does not come natural/easy for me.

I'm in no hurry to carve this particular rifle. I have plenty already finished at hand should I need to do some shooting or, you know, a battalion of regulars come marching past.

One thing that has crossed my mind: The cheek piece carving on the original Woods Runner is both simple and tasteful (from my point of view) and I could probably pull it off. However, I don't like the tang carving on the original at all. If anyone has an idea of something that would fit with the cheek carving stylistically, send it my way.

Thanks again for the help.

[smylee grouch]

What ever you finely choose to carve, make your lines a little less bold or thinner. Its too easy to wander from one side of the line to the other when actually cutting them into the wood. JMHO

[Dwshotwell]

What ever you finely choose to carve, make your lines a little less bold or thinner. Its too easy to wander from one side of the line to the other when actually cutting them into the wood. JMHO

Absolutely - I've made that mistake on a practice piece. I just didn't want to do that until I felt more comfortable with design.

[Mike Brooks]

Today at lunch I went through a couple of the books and picked two rifles where I like at least most of the carving all the way around. I'll be traveling a bit over the next few weeks, so I'm taking a sketchbook and some copies of those pictures and just going to try and repetitively reproduce what is there. Drawing does not come natural/easy for me.

I'm in no hurry to carve this particular rifle. I have plenty already finished at hand should I need to do some shooting or, you know, a battalion of regulars come marching past.

One thing that has crossed my mind: The cheek piece carving on the original Woods Runner is both simple and tasteful (from my point of view) and I could probably pull it off. However, I don't like the tang carving on the original at all. If anyone has an idea of something that would fit with the cheek carving stylistically, send it my way.

Thanks again for the help.

Look at the Klette rifle for tang carving, one of my old fall backs and easy to do. You can make a pattern with a folded piece  of papper to keep it symetrical.

click on the pic it will get a little bigger.

[Dwshotwell]

I like that. Thank you Mike.

[Scota4570]

Yes, copy an original design.  There's really no other good option when beginning to carve.

Jim

One option that works well for me is to copy Jim Kibler.   

[Mike Brooks]

Yes, copy an original design.  There's really no other good option when beginning to carve.

Jim

One option that works well for me is to copy Jim Kibler.   

Nothing wrong with that either!

[Blacksmoke]

Dwshotwell;  After you are satisfied with your design, take one portion of it and transfer it to a scrap piece of wood and practice carving that design in the scrap wood first - do not practice on the gun because those cuts are permanent and you cannot erase them.  Try and find a similar type of wood to practice on. I only mention the practice part because I do not know your skill level. I teach carving, so I am available if you need more help.  Good luck,    Hugh Toenjes

[Mike Brooks]

Do not practice tang carving on a flat piece of wood.

[Blacksmoke]

If you are a beginner, a flat surface will work just fine to begin with.  Back in the 70's I spent some time with Jim Chambers in his shop. There I did my first carving under his tutelage. It was on a flat piece of scrap maple.  The tools used were a pocket knife and a piece of sand paper.  You do not need a complete set of expensive carving chisels!  I used the pocket knife to Stabb in with and a scraper.  The sand paper was used to smooth out the rough edges.  And "Wala" that was my first caving!  By the way I still have that carving hanging in my shop for demonstration to students.  Hugh Toenjes

[Jim Kibler]

I agree with Mike.  Use a curved piece of wood to practice on.

[Dwshotwell]

I have a Kibler practice stock. I've rasped my scratching off of the tang and the cheek area at least once, but the general shape will still work.

[flatsguide]

Please don’t practice on a soft piece of wood, use one of Jim Kiblers practice stocks or another piece of scrap hard maple. Keep your chisels razor sharp. You will learn a tremendous amount while practice carving the first few designs. Good luck!
Cheers Richard