Carving Design Advice

[Sudsy]

Keep your chisels razor sharp.

Bold, italic, and underlined !!

[Blacksmoke]

For the beginner: here is an excerpt from my relief carving article . It details the very first cuts the you make when starting to relief carve your pattern.  I always use a carving knife or exacto knife to make the first cuts perpendicular to the wood surface. And yes make sure the wood is hard - if you can dig your fingernail into it readily it is too soft! You need the wood to resist the cut. If it doesn't the fibers will tear instead of cut. the result will be rough sides to your image.  You want the image to be distinct and crisp.  Do not use a V chisel to define your outline as this result in sloping edges to the image where you want them to crisp and pronounced.  Again my 2 cents worth.  Hugh Toenjes

[Jim Kibler]

Did you ever think that you might want to use a v-tool to match original work?  A high percentage of original work employed this tool.

I've seen your approach of removing wood around the initial stab line before. I suppose it will work fine, but myself and some others I know prefer to start by removing the background away from the element and work towards it.  I've never been fond of the "groove" technique.

By the way, this was cut with a v-tool

[smylee grouch]

Another design option for learning is The Book of Lancaster carving by Bicio (sp). Soom great rococo design C  scroll ideas and variations shown.

[mtlonghunter]

I think your last drawing for behind the check piece is much better but you may want to lower it on the gun to get away from the butt plate . You will have trouble relieving that area being so close. Also take a .look at your beginning scroll and follow it to your longest element , you will see a fairly large flat spot that will look better if it comes out of the main cluster at a larger radius than the element below it. Both should flow off of that main c scroll smoothly .keep drawing that's where it all begins.

[Blacksmoke]

Jim:  I did not say not to say NEVER to use a V chisel at all, only to do the initial cuts.  When it comes time to embellish the image or modeling, all sorts of chisels and files will be used including the V chisel.  Sorry if I did not make that clear. Also that is the basic tool used to do incised carving.  Hugh Toenjes

[Dwshotwell]

Another design option for learning is The Book of Lancaster carving by Bicio (sp). Soom great rococo design C  scroll ideas and variations shown.

I've heard this book mentioned before and it sounds like a great resource, but I haven't seen it available anywhere. I saw a post with a link to the author's website from a few years ago, but the site no longer exists. I've googled it a few times and a few different ways and all I find are the posts here or on MZ Forum talking about it as a great resource. Short of a hail mary "looking to buy" add, if anyone knows where to find a copy, let me know.

[Cody Tetachuk]

Did you ever think that you might want to use a v-tool to match original work?  A high percentage of original work employed this tool.

I had the read the above quote twice s-l-o-w-l-y to make sure that I understood it correctly and believe I do. The reason that it struck me is that back when I was building and a regular contributing member here (up to about 15 years ago), this subject was breeched a few times and at THAT time the general consensus was that the "proper" way to outline relief carving was to stab it in using progressively tighter radii gouges to get proper, smooth volutes because that was how it was done back in the day and how all the best makers of the day do it. IIRC, the stabbing method is also what Wm, Buschel teaches in his book "Building the Kentucky rifle" which, again, at the time was considered the "bible" among the better builders. I always chased the pattern with a V chisel (because I was self taught meaning I learned from someone that didn't know what they were doing) but I did flirt with the stabbing method after so many respected builders here recommended it and touted it as "the proper" way to do it. Didn't work for me and I went back to chasing it with the V.

[Mike Brooks]

Did you ever think that you might want to use a v-tool to match original work?  A high percentage of original work employed this tool.

I had the read the above quote twice s-l-o-w-l-y to make sure that I understood it correctly and believe I do. The reason that it struck me is that back when I was building and a regular contributing member here (up to about 15 years ago), this subject was breeched a few times and at THAT time the general consensus was that the "proper" way to outline relief carving was to stab it in using progressively tighter radii gouges to get proper, smooth volutes because that was how it was done back in the day and how all the best makers of the day do it. IIRC, the stabbing method is also what Wm, Buschel teaches in his book "Building the Kentucky rifle" which, again, at the time was considered the "bible" among the better builders. I always chased the pattern with a V chisel (because I was self taught meaning I learned from someone that didn't know what they were doing) but I did flirt with the stabbing method after so many respected builders here recommended it and touted it as "the proper" way to do it. Didn't work for me and I went back to chasing it with the V.

I have probably used a V tool more than anything else in the past 43 years. Several years ago I invested in a whole pile of gouges so I could stamp in carving. I use a combination of the two now. I can't imagine using a knife for outlining carving. I personally would have no control and would have difficulty maintaining 90*. I personally like the slight angle a V tool leaves on the edge of carving....sort of like what you see on original work.

[Blacksmoke]

I learned 'hands on" from John Bivins and Jim Chambers back in the 1970's.  Here is the very first relief carving that I ever did. It was done in Jim Chambers shop Circa 1978.   Done with nothing more than a pocket Knief  and a little sand paper!
Hugh Toenjes

[Cody Tetachuk]

 I have probably used a V tool more than anything else in the past 43 years. Several years ago I invested in a whole pile of gouges so I could stamp in carving. I use a combination of the two now. I can't imagine using a knife for outlining carving. I personally would have no control and would have difficulty maintaining 90*. I personally like the slight angle a V tool leaves on the edge of carving....sort of like what you see on original work.

I also would have limited control using any sort of knife to outline the carving. However, to be fair, I also have difficulty maintaining consistent depth use ghat stabbing method yet, others use it with wonderful results. At the end of the day, the end product is what matters, how one gets their is an individual endeavour and what works for one may not work for another. Another note, I don't think anyone that uses a stab in method (or knife for that matter) leaves the edges perpendicular to the surface. IIRC, back when this topic was being discussed on this forum and I was about the only one that did NOT use the stab method, all those that did would go back after relieving the background and add a taper to the design edges with a chisel. The main reasons that I used a V Chisel was A-I dod. to have to go back and taper the edges as that was automatically done when I cut the outline and B-I found the V chisel to be a great depth "guide" since, depending on the angle of the "V", any variation of the width of the cut was double the variation of the depth so as long as I kept the width consistent then I knew the depth was doubly consistent. On that note, while I dod VERY little incise carving, when I did I used a "U" viener rather than a "V" parting tool simply BECAUSE ant variation in depth with the V tool was double in the width whereas a "U" viening tool was MUCH more forgiving and if I needed to vary with width for "effect" I would go back and do that with gently with a flat chisel. I found much more control this way but that is just me. More than one way to skin a cat as they say. 

[Jim Kibler]

 I have probably used a V tool more than anything else in the past 43 years. Several years ago I invested in a whole pile of gouges so I could stamp in carving. I use a combination of the two now. I can't imagine using a knife for outlining carving. I personally would have no control and would have difficulty maintaining 90*. I personally like the slight angle a V tool leaves on the edge of carving....sort of like what you see on original work.

I also would have limited control using any sort of knife to outline the carving. However, to be fair, I also have difficulty maintaining consistent depth use ghat stabbing method yet, others use it with wonderful results. At the end of the day, the end product is what matters, how one gets their is an individual endeavour and what works for one may not work for another. Another note, I don't think anyone that uses a stab in method (or knife for that matter) leaves the edges perpendicular to the surface. IIRC, back when this topic was being discussed on this forum and I was about the only one that did NOT use the stab method, all those that did would go back after relieving the background and add a taper to the design edges with a chisel. The main reasons that I used a V Chisel was A-I dod. to have to go back and taper the edges as that was automatically done when I cut the outline and B-I found the V chisel to be a great depth "guide" since, depending on the angle of the "V", any variation of the width of the cut was double the variation of the depth so as long as I kept the width consistent then I knew the depth was doubly consistent. On that note, while I dod VERY little incise carving, when I did I used a "U" viener rather than a "V" parting tool simply BECAUSE ant variation in depth with the V tool was double in the width whereas a "U" viening tool was MUCH more forgiving and if I needed to vary with width for "effect" I would go back and do that with gently with a flat chisel. I found much more control this way but that is just me. More than one way to skin a cat as they say.

Don't worry about cutting too deep when stabbing.  Makes no difference most all of the time.  The only time it's an issue is in a very delicate area.  Push a little harder when cutting across the grain.  I really give it zero conscious consideration when stabbing in.

As far as beveling edges goes, it can be done, but isn't always necessary or beneficial.  If I do it, I use a skew chisel as a knife and work the edges.  You have to be very mindful of grain direction.  As far as the crispest, finest carving, this is probably the best method, but it's not always called for or even wanted.  Sometimes the edges are also rolled over slightly to the background with abrasives.  This can be a good look as well.  As mentioned, there are several ways to go about things.

Jim

[Mike Brooks]

I have been around when Chambers was teaching carving classes. I must have missed the part of the class where he recommended a pocketknife and a little sandpaper. I should pay closer attention.
 

[A.Merrill]

The bold lines you drew are good for showing up good in pictures, do not use these for carving.  Believe it or not the thinner your lines are the more accurate your carving will be and much cleaner.   Al

[A.Merrill]

 Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

[Mike Brooks]

Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.

 Well, that does it. I'm going to have to go get some glasses.

[JTR]

Looks like a pretty flat piece of wood as well...
 

[axelp]

I think there is a huge range of carving styles and ability on original work. Not sure you can pigeonhole them all into one slot so easily. I know in the great state of PA, there are quite a few distinct styles and also examples of both crude folksy to highly refined. They all are pretty darn cool.

I had the pleasure of attending the CLA show this year and there were more original guns displayed there than I have ever seen in my whole lifetime. And yes some were like Blacksmoke's classroom piece from a long time ago... and some were far beyond that. Hey, back in the day, there were newbies and apprentices and also just skilled gunsmiths that did not have the chops for the high end stuff and so they did what they could manage--- kinda like today.

K

[Jim Kibler]

Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.

[Cody Tetachuk]

Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.

I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.

[Johnny Danger]

Dwshotwell, I don't mean to hijack your post but I think we are in the same boat, or at least the same lake. I applied some scribbles to my stock from a very well-known book. I was wondering if some of the more "persnickety" members might give some advice. Does this count as "original" type work?  I'm quite sure I could do a lifetime of studying before I put a pencil or chisel to a rifle, but I would like to finish the @!*% thing before I'm taking a dirt nap.

[rich pierce]

Looks like Chuck Dixon’s book. Carving looks nice. It would be a nice addition at the entry thimble if you connected the design to a molding or incised line going along the forestock toward the nosecap.

[Cody Tetachuk]

I agree with Rich. As it is it looks like an afterthought just sitting there "lost in space"

[Johnny Danger]

Yes, it looks like a "sticker". I haven't gotten to tying it into the forstock yet.

[Mike Brooks]

Dwshotwell, I don't mean to hijack your post but I think we are in the same boat, or at least the same lake. I applied some scribbles to my stock from a very well-known book. I was wondering if some of the more "persnickety" members might give some advice. Does this count as "original" type work?  I'm quite sure I could do a lifetime of studying before I put a pencil or chisel to a rifle, but I would like to finish the @!*% thing before I'm taking a dirt nap.

Persnickety? Nice  way to enter the room looking for help.