Carving Design Advice

[Mike Brooks]

Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.

I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.

I'm at a loss for words. You might consider buying the KRA CDs and seeing how good American carving is. Kibler carved what should be considered standard fair. The men 250 years ago replicated that easily. These old timers weren't a bunch of talentless crude cavemen carving gunstocks around the campfire with pocket knives.

[Johnny Danger]

[
Persnickety? Nice  way to enter the room looking for help.

Rich Pierce used the term when he was referring to himself, and other members of the forum, while critiquing my shoddy carving work.  I chuckled and it made me feel better. I used it here as a term of endearment. I'm new, and just trying to learn. Offence was the opposite of my intention.

[Jim Kibler]

Thank you, Mike.

I’m also proud to be part of a monumentous event.  You at a loss for words😆

[Mike Brooks]

Thank you, Mike.

I’m also proud to be part of a monumentous event.  You at a loss for words😆

[Mike Brooks]

[
Persnickety? Nice  way to enter the room looking for help.

Rich Pierce used the term when he was referring to himself, and other members of the forum, while critiquing my shoddy carving work.  I chuckled and it made me feel better. I used it here as a term of endearment. I'm new, and just trying to learn. Offence was the opposite of my intention.

I apologize. I sometimes read lengthy posts with one eye while resting the other. In your particular case I'd say less is more. I have no idea what talent you currently have when it comes to putting chisel to wood but all those added on tiny volutes can be difficult to execute. Little tiny carving generally looks like a mess, very few people can pull it off even though some of the top people in the trade think they can do it....they fail miserably. Tiny carving does not a good design make.

[Mike Brooks]

Here's Chambers and I discussing the merits of carving with a pocketknife back in about 2005 or so. You can see the look of skepticism in my eye....

[Johnny Danger]

[
Persnickety? Nice  way to enter the room looking for help.

Rich Pierce used the term when he was referring to himself, and other members of the forum, while critiquing my shoddy carving work.  I chuckled and it made me feel better. I used it here as a term of endearment. I'm new, and just trying to learn. Offence was the opposite of my intention.

I apologize. I sometimes read lengthy posts with one eye while resting the other. In your particular case I'd say less is more. I have no idea what talent you currently have when it comes to putting chisel to wood but all those added on tiny volutes can be difficult to execute. Little tiny carving generally looks like a mess, very few people can pull it off even though some of the top people in the trade think they can do it....they fail miserably. Tiny carving does not a good design make.

No worries Mike and thanks!

Do you have an example of "less"? These pictures were obviously taken from Art of Building the Pennsylvania Long Rifle. I apologize but I tend to need the direct approach. "Carve this, here." I blame this personality flaw on 20 years in the military, haha.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll go to my "fall back" answer. Study originals. You have too many 'thorns" coming off the carving. You just don't see that sort of thing on old guns. The tang carving has a central tendril that needs to be gone, checker the inside of that area. The little hang me downer off of the tang carving is awkward and kinky.
 What's wrong with just a couple volutes coming off the lower fore stock molding and nothing around the ram rod pipe? Sort of a less is more type of thing.
 Let me ask and I don't mean to be offensive.....Have you ever carved before? You have the ability to draw but can you execute what you have drawn? I don't know what your abilities are so It's hard to give more advice. A simple carving well executed looks better than complicated carving poorly done.

Pick a school, study originals. I don't understand where the concept of making your own design came from. Sort of a new concept to me. There seems to be  some bad influence here from contemporary oriented gunmakers. You can move on to new design after you accomplish established design. That may take several or dozens of  guns. Stick to traditional design until you have it whipped then if you have to move on to your own thing. Look at Kibler's cheek carving. Absolutely traditional and well executed and not overly complicated with tiny carvings or thorns coming off of it.
 Now I'm waiting for all the responses of "It's his gun he should do what he wants" Or my favorite "That looks great!"

[Dwshotwell]

So I’m going to try to distill some of the various ideas above down to rules:

1. Study originals and copy them as faithfully as possible when starting. Don’t try to be original until you have enough experience to recognize what works and what does not.

2. Simplify rather than complicate.

3. Practice drawing as much as possible. You can’t fix a bad drawing with good carving. Study the principles of Baroque / Rocco scrolls as applied to original rifles.

4. Designs should flow and connect the transition areas of rifles and not be dropped in, disconnected from the structure. See #1, study originals.

5. When drawing for carving, use thin, sharp lines that will be easy to follow with a chisel or gouge.

6. Practice on hard wood that is properly shaped. Don’t try to practice a tang carving on flat wood.

7. Learn to sharpen and maintain your tools. Stop and sharpen/strop often.

8. Check your ego at the door when you ask for help. Writers say that to be good you have to be willing to “kill your darlings,” that is to throw out what you’ve done and start over. Erase and re-draw until it is right.


What did I miss?

[Johnny Danger]

Hello Mike,

Those images are a direct copy from a book. I definitely didn't make them up. Do you know of any pictures or examples of a specific rifle to copy? Again, I kind of need the direct approach, "Johnny, see this rifle, copy this one".  Should I copy Kibler's? I don't understand "study originals" but don't make your own design. I'm new, most of what I hear is "What color does the number four smell like?" As far as carving ability goes... I don't feel qualified to say. I feel I'm pretty good with my hands. I definitely don't want to make another rifle with no carving on it.

[Mike Brooks]

So I’m going to try to distill some of the various ideas above down to rules:

1. Study originals and copy them as faithfully as possible when starting. Don’t try to be original until you have enough experience to recognize what works and what does not.

2. Simplify rather than complicate.

3. Practice drawing as much as possible. You can’t fix a bad drawing with good carving. Study the principles of Baroque / Rocco scrolls as applied to original rifles.

4. Designs should flow and connect the transition areas of rifles and not be dropped in, disconnected from the structure. See #1, study originals.

5. When drawing for carving, use thin, sharp lines that will be easy to follow with a chisel or gouge.

6. Practice on hard wood that is properly shaped. Don’t try to practice a tang carving on flat wood.

7. Learn to sharpen and maintain your tools. Stop and sharpen/strop often.

8. Check your ego at the door when you ask for help. Writers say that to be good you have to be willing to “kill your darlings,” that is to throw out what you’ve done and start over. Erase and re-draw until it is right.


What did I miss?

That all sounds reasonable to me. I'm sure other people here will tell you I'm full of crapola.

[Mike Brooks]

Hello Mike,

Those images are a direct copy from a book. I definitely didn't make them up. Do you know of any pictures or examples of a specific rifle to copy? Again, I kind of need the direct approach, "Johnny, see this rifle, copy this one".  Should I copy Kibler's? I don't understand "study originals" but don't make your own design. I'm new, most of what I hear is "What color does the number four smell like?" As far as carving ability goes... I don't feel qualified to say. I feel I'm pretty good with my hands. I definitely don't want to make another rifle with no carving on it.

That book is using drawings of somebody else's interpretation of what carving should look like. Copying Kibler's carving is probably a good idea. Also go look at his website, a lot of very good stuff there. Check out Kettenburg's stuff and website. Also A. Martin's website. Also Mike Gahagan's stuff. These guys are all at the top of the field and copy original traditional carving for the most part. That is why they get the big bucks.
 Invest a few bucks in the KRA DVDs. You can blow that carving up to GIANT and see how it was actually done.....none of it with a pocket knife BTW.
As I stated above , most people think I'm full of BS so there is that.....

[Johnny Danger]

So I’m going to try to distill some of the various ideas above down to rules:

1. Study originals and copy them as faithfully as possible when starting. Don’t try to be original until you have enough experience to recognize what works and what does not.

2. Simplify rather than complicate.

3. Practice drawing as much as possible. You can’t fix a bad drawing with good carving. Study the principles of Baroque / Rocco scrolls as applied to original rifles.

4. Designs should flow and connect the transition areas of rifles and not be dropped in, disconnected from the structure. See #1, study originals.

5. When drawing for carving, use thin, sharp lines that will be easy to follow with a chisel or gouge.

6. Practice on hard wood that is properly shaped. Don’t try to practice a tang carving on flat wood.

7. Learn to sharpen and maintain your tools. Stop and sharpen/strop often.

8. Check your ego at the door when you ask for help. Writers say that to be good you have to be willing to “kill your darlings,” that is to throw out what you’ve done and start over. Erase and re-draw until it is right.


What did I miss?

Dwshotwell,

Is this what you hear? Because this is what I hear.

[Dwshotwell]

“Is this what you hear? Because this is what I hear.”

Yes - not easy to figure out what to cut sometimes without cutting what is essential.

While I’m still very much a beginner, obviously, I have found a few good YouTube videos on the principles of drawing scrolls etc. and that has been very helpful. I was bedridden with a broken leg, and just typed “drawing baroque scrolls into YouTube and started watching. I can look up a few links if that would help.

Also, Mary May has online carving lessons, many of the basics free, and while the content itself doesn’t necessary carry over, she teaches basics of reading and working with grain direction and that sort of stuff that improved my last few practice attempts. She also has good info on sharpening and is just a good teacher.

[Jim Kibler]

David,

I think you've made a good list of things to be mindful of when carving.  As mentioned, the absolute best advice is to study original work.  For some reason, few seem to have the desire to do this.  I should probably hold my tongue, but I've seen Mary May's work and I've not been too impressed.  Seems odd that she teaches as much as she does?

[Dwshotwell]

Thanks Jim regarding the list above. As for Mary May, I’m not qualified to judge her carving ability from an artistic point of view, but will say that as a beginner I picked up a few things from her videos that I hadn’t heard before and that have been useful.

[Elnathan]

Hello Mike,

Those images are a direct copy from a book. I definitely didn't make them up. Do you know of any pictures or examples of a specific rifle to copy? Again, I kind of need the direct approach, "Johnny, see this rifle, copy this one".  Should I copy Kibler's? I don't understand "study originals" but don't make your own design. I'm new, most of what I hear is "What color does the number four smell like?" As far as carving ability goes... I don't feel qualified to say. I feel I'm pretty good with my hands. I definitely don't want to make another rifle with no carving on it.

If you need resources, there are a bunch of originals right here on this board, free for viewing: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0
PA sub-board: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=111.0
Morphy's Auctions have nice pictures too: https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/auctionresults.aspx?searchvalue=flintlock&searchby=3

I'm not entirely new, and agree that a lot of the advice has been frustratingly vague and apparently contradictory. I'm not sure if Mike is suggesting that you pick an original pattern and follow it exactly (which people rarely do unless copying a specific gun), or use a simplified version of a specific design, or if he just means stick with the original style (which assumes you know what the original style is, is not, and how to follow your own muse while coloring inside the lines, so to speak). Maybe he could clarify...

Looking at originals is vital. What no one is telling you is what to look for, which would really be helpful. Off the top of my head I can think of: C-shapes, S-shapes, shell patterns, volutes/scrolls/club ends, and leaf shapes, and I know there are some others. Most of mainstream longrifle carving is just different combinations of a comparatively few shapes and motifs, I think.

There are also, incidentally, a small number of original guns that feature critters, potted plants, and other folk art motifs that fall outside the paradigm outlined above. I happen to like these a lot, but they are a different discussion, really.

*The most valuable art instruction I've ever been given was break down whatever I was drawing into a set of shapes and lines in proportion to each other. I have little skill as a traditional artist, but the practice of looking an object or design this way has been surprisingly useful over the years.*

[Frozen Run]

I have probably used a V tool more than anything else in the past 43 years.

Do you have a picture of this V tool or can you point to something specific from the pfeil catalog that is similar? Thank you.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll see if I can remember to take a picture next time I'm in the shop. It's shaped like a V. Small. 1 or  2mm. How ever big a mm is...

[JTR]

Frozen Run,
Here is a link that shows a V-Tool and its use. They come in several sizes, and quality. Rockler seems to sell fair quality. It pays to buy good/high quality so as not to have to sharpen it as often.

https://www.rockler.com/flexcut-fr317-45-x-5-32-fixed-handle-palm-v-tool?country=US&sid=V91074&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&gad_source=5&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgoGG-seXgwMV2iqtBh1pzAlXEAQYASABEgLSavD_BwE

This place has higher quality and more size options; https://www.woodcraft.com/products/pfeil-swiss-made-12-sweep-v-parting-tool-6-mm-full-size?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiPGcvMqXgwMVpTOtBh2wNwgVEAQYASABEgJbzvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Dwshotwell]

I believe with Pfiel the V gouges are any numbered 12 or higher.

[Copper Dave]

I don’t know if you are in a hurry, but the NMLRA is hosting classes at Western Kentucky University in June, 2024. Mike Miller is teaching a 3day Carving Design class and then a 6day Relief Carving class. You can check the NMLRA website and look under the education tab for details.

[A.Merrill]

Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.

 Maybe you have seen carvings I haven't, who knows. But I think you do some beautiful carvings don't take me wrong, but from all my books your carvings have something different I can't pinpoint what it is. But in the book The Contemporary Longrifle,  your style of caving fits right in. Maybe you studied it.   Al

[Jerry V Lape]

John Danger, keep in mind the carved figures should look as if they originated out of the wood.  Shouldn't look like an applied item which some describe as looking like spaghetti thrown on the wood.  They have to come from somewhere.  Rococo art is organic:  Plants, seashells, vines, leaves, ferns etc.

[Johnny Danger]

I think I'm going to go this route.