Author Topic: Carving Design Advice  (Read 10350 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2023, 06:46:52 AM »
Is there anything wrong with something more traditional?
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Offline aaronc

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2023, 08:04:16 AM »
Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.
I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.




I don't build rifles, I do hang out here and look at all the great work though......and 100% agree that Jim's work is very distinguishable and contemporary. On an average day I think I could pick it out from across the room. He's an extreme talent and his execution at carving is unique for my eye.
- Aaron C
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Offline Scott L

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2023, 09:44:29 AM »


I find a gun I like and try to build one as close to it as I can. I'm not an artist. I want to build guns that look like they were designed by people who lived in the period of the gun, not by me. This is a Jaeger I built based on the F. Morganroth.A.Gernrode illustrated in Shumway's Jaeger book. I find carving to be relatively easy. It's the design that is very hard. I spent 25 man
hours staring at less than sharp pictures to come up with all the full-size drawings I used for the carvings. Draw and erase, draw and erase, repeat ,repeat, then look at it for a while. Usually followed by more erasing and drawing. I can't draw either, but I can copy. As can be seen from my supposedly final drawing of the carving behind the cheek piece, I made still more last-minute changes to the design. It's not perfect but the end result follows the original to my satisfaction. For me, it's about history. I want
to build a gun that would not look out of place in the hand of a man of 250 years ago. I second the idea of copying an original.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2023, 04:11:31 PM »
Scott: wow! Not sure I’d even attempt that. Very nicely done. Welcome to ALR!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Johnny Danger

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #79 on: December 24, 2023, 04:15:42 PM »
Scott,

I couldn't agree with you more. Nice carving by the way! I can't draw or design. I copied the last drawing from this famous poster, I had laying around for years.


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2023, 04:46:33 PM »
I have never seen the "famous" poster before. You could do the same thing and copy original carving instead of fantasy carving.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Johnny Danger

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #81 on: December 24, 2023, 04:57:28 PM »
Hi Mike,

Do you have an example of one you might point a new person to the hobby? Please remember, I'm so new, I don't even know what I don't know.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2023, 05:34:53 PM »
Hi Mike,

Do you have an example of one you might point a new person to the hobby? Please remember, I'm so new, I don't even know what I don't know.
Johnny, if you don’t have books or CDs yet, surf the net for “original Dickert flintlock rifle” and “original George Schroyer flintlock rifle” and “original John Armstrong flintlock rifle” and so on. Also check out our library of originals. Here is a link to a small portion of it. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=343.0


In your searches add “Oerter”, “J P Beck”, “Niehardt”, “Rupp”, “Faber”, “Sheets”….. the list goes on
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 05:42:41 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cody Tetachuk

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #83 on: December 24, 2023, 05:41:03 PM »
Is there anything wrong with something more traditional?
Is there anything wrong with doing what appeals to the guy building it??. How boring would the history of the longrifle be if every longrifle from 1770 to 1810 had the exact same carving copied from the one before it and there was no "schools". Yes I AM aware that MANY carvings on "originals" are copied, usually copies of those done by the makers mentor. IMO, a builder today should build (and carve and engrave) what appeals to THEM and as such, when I look at a contemporary rifle, I look solely at the quality of workmanship and try to keep my personal artistic taste out of it as that is a personal thing and is irrelevant when looking at the work of others. Now, having said that, if a rifle is built and is being represented as from a specific "school", then it has parameters that is must adhere to in order to belong to, and represent that specific "school". THAT is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2023, 05:46:52 PM »
Cody, I agree, it must please the user. I think of it like music. Most songwriters learn to play existing songs before they start writing their own, or at the very least have heard and probably sung existing songs before they start songwriting. So they kinda know what’s a song, and what’s noise, though we’d disagree on whether this or that is “music”. But there’s familiarity. I think we are encouraging those new to carving to know what original long rifle carving looks like.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2023, 06:14:11 PM »
"It's his gun, he should do what he wants!". ::) One of my favorite statements...NOT!  Oh well, what's the point. Might as well use a thumb hole stock too if it's "his gun".  I've given advice on this thread, do with it what you will...or won't, I'm done.

This forum used to back traditional work. Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I think I may have "timed out" of current gunmaking philosophy.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2023, 09:25:57 PM »
If it’s just about being happy with your work, then this place probably isn’t for those people.  This may be taken to an extreme, but you get my point.  I think this site focuses on original and high quality spin offs from original work.   As has been mentioned a thousand times, you can’t do “your own thing” and have what would generally be considered good results, without spending LOTS of time with traditional work.

To be frank, I think these discussions fail at least in part, because there are huge difference in viewpoints and perspectives.  Oftentimes individuals, can’t tell what is a good design or not.  And just because it pleases them, doesn’t mean it is good!  This isn’t completely arbitrary stuff.

As to the design in question, I don’t think it’s the best.  I’ll repeat, find some good original work and copy it.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 10:04:24 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #87 on: December 24, 2023, 10:05:56 PM »
Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.
I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.




I don't build rifles, I do hang out here and look at all the great work though......and 100% agree that Jim's work is very distinguishable and contemporary. On an average day I think I could pick it out from across the room. He's an extreme talent and his execution at carving is unique for my eye.

I would challenge anyone to explain exactly what about the work shown above isn't traditional.

Offline Cody Tetachuk

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #88 on: December 24, 2023, 10:42:47 PM »
Might as well use a thumb hole stock too if it's "his gun".
Reductio ad absurdum, the default response when someone can't make their point with logic and reason. That's a shame. I only recently came back after many years absent from this forum. My reasons for leaving in the first place are not relevant, neither are the reasons for my return. However, my intentions are NOT to "upset the apple cart" or to cause conflict. However, I do have my opinions and perspectives that I thought maybe some may find thought provoking and while I appreciate and respect differing opinions and perspectives, apparently, that puts me in the minority here. Therefore I will respectfully "bow out" so as not to have my "contributions" cause any more strife. As you were.

Offline mgbruch

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #89 on: December 24, 2023, 10:47:33 PM »
The American long rifle is an art form that is unique to this country.  Not only to this country, but to specific regions as well.  Not just because of their beauty, but because of the important role they played in our history (and my personal ancestry), I'm strongly in favor of preserving, and protecting, the art form.

Sure, you can put whatever carving you like on your gun.  But when you present it, at a shoot, rendezvous, for re-sale, etc... present it for what is is.  It's just not cool to present something as traditional, when it's not.

When it comes to protecting the art form, many of us are guilty of infractions.  I build southern guns from a blank, and make all the hardware... but I grey the iron.  Most all of us think it looks pretty cool, and it can really set a piece off visually.  Most importantly... it really helps to sell a gun.  But in all my reading, I can't find where it was done historically.  Nor were new guns aged and dented when they left the shop.

I can only imagine the string of German explicatives that would have resulted if my ancestors were presented with a new gun that looked like it had spent the last twenty years being ridden hard and put away wet!  One of my flintlocks has the artifice of greyed metal... because it looks cool.  But when showing it, I do make a point to say that it was done for the visual effect, and is not a traditional metal finish.

We are all on our own journey's here.  If I were to present my work for critique i would get a lot of atta-boys from people with less knowledge than me.  I would get both compliments and criticism from the experts; and several of them would tell me to "buy more books".  They would be right; and there are more books and study in my future, as my budget will permit.  When it comes to traditional, I do struggle between what is traditional, what I want to do, and what I'm able to do.

It depends on where a person wants to go.  I want continued progress in my knowledge and abilities.  When I compare my work to historic pieces, I'm sometimes uncomfortable.  That discomfort tells me that my work isn't where I want it to be yet.  That's where I want to go.  And while I find the carving of some of the experts to be contemporary in some small ways... to my non-expert eyes their work definitely falls within the discipline of traditional designs and rococo art.  As the art form continues in it's evolution, I think it's important to stay within the disciplines of the art.

I'm not a kit person... But, I get the impression that... because of the ease in which a high quality kit can be assembled and finished, many people new to the sport don't appreciate the knowledge and work that went into that kit.  It seems like mass production and ready availability, while needed in this sport, have diminished the artistic value many place on the gun as a traditional arm.  It's a little sad.

A good kit is easy to get now.  And it's not going to cost you a month's wages.  And if you ruin it, you can always get another one just like it... right?  So you can dress your Barbie up any way you want.  Traditionalists want to preserve an art form used by our predecessors; whom we admire and emulate.  Its a worthy cause/.  If the art form becomes lost, it will be because of the people in this sport... not in spite of them.

For whatever it may, or may not, be worth.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #90 on: December 24, 2023, 10:50:26 PM »
Kinda find the two terms being tossed about here, as far as flintlocks are concerned to be an oxymoron. Traditional and contemporary. Traditional being, in my mind the way to go when doing carvings on a flintlock. Contemporary would be more in tune with putting a skull sticker on the plastic stock of your not to be mentioned rifle here. :o

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2023, 11:12:51 PM »
Kinda find the two terms being tossed about here, as far as flintlocks are concerned to be an oxymoron. Traditional and contemporary. Traditional being, in my mind the way to go when doing carvings on a flintlock. Contemporary would be more in tune with putting a skull sticker on the plastic stock of your not to be mentioned rifle here. :o
Contemporary work here. Based on 19th century work. You’re never going to find an antique with this kind of work. This, like much of the work being done out there is very contemporary.  Is this the “black plastic” work with which you refer? Things don’t need to be done just one way. Lighten up dude…..





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« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 11:21:32 PM by Stoner creek »
Stop Marxism in America

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #92 on: December 24, 2023, 11:28:08 PM »
Just my two cents, nothing more, I just find the traditional approach more to be in the spirit of these types of rifles/pistols. While the plastic remark may have been a wee bit harsh, it wasn't to put down a contemporary piece, probable a poor choice in words

Offline Johnny Danger

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #93 on: December 24, 2023, 11:34:56 PM »
So,

That poster is not traditional?

Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #94 on: December 24, 2023, 11:38:42 PM »
This is an interesting thread. I think it is hard to explain the concept to someone who does'nt know much about traditional carving or gunmaking of the era. You can not look at one picture, fall in love and want to create your own thoughts and think its going to look great or be correct. It is a study of the art of the time period as well.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=79439.0
Hope I got the link right, and no offence to the original poster. I think this is a good example of how your seeing what it should look like is just so wrong. And some people can not understand why. I have problems arranging words into sentences and people sometimes dont know what I am saying. If you know what I mean.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #95 on: December 24, 2023, 11:41:51 PM »
I think we’ve got to split this topic out. The purpose of the thread was to provide requested help to someone new to carving. It’s expanded to whether all of Jim K’s work is traditional or contemporary, and whether anyone should invent their own designs not easily traced to original work.

It’s Christmas Eve, folks. Do we have to argue? Is it actually informative engaging discussion or just grousing about anything that’s not your personal preference?

We are a small group. Do we gain by division? How about we make some people feel uncomfortable here and make them want to leave?  Is that a win?

Just my big-picture thoughts.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2023, 11:48:04 PM »
This is an interesting thread. I think it is hard to explain the concept to someone who does'nt know much about traditional carving or gunmaking of the era. You can not look at one picture, fall in love and want to create your own thoughts and think its going to look great or be correct. It is a study of the art of the time period as well.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=79439.0
Hope I got the link right, and no offence to the original poster. I think this is a good example of how your seeing what it should look like is just so wrong. And some people can not understand why. I have problems arranging words into sentences and people sometimes dont know what I am saying. If you know what I mean.

That is really well said.  To the extreme, it’s like screaming at someone who can’t hear.  Or in other words, you can’t understand what you don’t know.

Sub par designs absolutely scream at me.  Even when some might praise them.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2023, 11:54:27 PM »
I don't think its an argument. I think with so much talent here, to be real, you're also going to have ego, one sided opinions. In my mind you can't ascend to the high levels without some if those traits. A smart person forms their own opinions with taking in all the information placed in front if them. Without spirited debate we are but sheep to be led by a slick Shepherd.Merry Christmas folks

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2023, 11:58:36 PM »
Kinda find the two terms being tossed about here, as far as flintlocks are concerned to be an oxymoron. Traditional and contemporary. Traditional being, in my mind the way to go when doing carvings on a flintlock. Contemporary would be more in tune with putting a skull sticker on the plastic stock of your not to be mentioned rifle here. :o
Contemporary work here. Based on 19th century work. You’re never going to find an antique with this kind of work. This, like much of the work being done out there is very contemporary.  Is this the “black plastic” work with which you refer? Things don’t need to be done just one way. Lighten up dude…..





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I see nothing but traditional work here by a man that works with in traditional parameters. You can't go wrong copying this sort of work. Sure as $#*! beats anything I'm capable of.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline aaronc

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Re: Carving Design Advice
« Reply #99 on: December 25, 2023, 12:05:19 AM »
Kibler's carvings are very beautiful, he does great work, but it looks very contemporary. Look at Blacksmokes carving he did with a pocket knife and sandpaper, to me that looks like something you would see on an original PA. longrifle.  Get a book or 2 on original guns. Thoughts on the Kentucky rifle in its Golden Age, is a good one but they don't show drawings around the tang. You can copy original carvings but do change a little bit about them to make them your design. Good luck.   Al

Contemporary?  You need to study more original work.
I would agree with A.Merrill's comment in the sense that, while the ELEMENTS in your carving are quite traditional, your execution appears quite contemporary in that I am not convinced that ANY of the original makers, even the very best at the time, could execute carving as fine as yours. That very fine execution is what gives your carving (and that of all the other top shelf makers of today) a "contemporary" look. IMO, it is really difficult to know for sure how these guns looked when they left the bench 220 years ago as most are well used/worn unlike much of the top European stuff that went to royalty and the "landed gentry" and was rarely if ever used and resides in museums in pristine, original condition but it's a pretty safe bat that none came close to the fine execution of many of todays better makers.




I don't build rifles, I do hang out here and look at all the great work though......and 100% agree that Jim's work is very distinguishable and contemporary. On an average day I think I could pick it out from across the room. He's an extreme talent and his execution at carving is unique for my eye.

I would challenge anyone to explain exactly what about the work shown above isn't traditional.


Jim,
       for my eye your carving style is unique even when compared to original rifles. It's unique in design and for sure in execution. I could go into more detail on the factors that form my opinion later. When I say I could pick one of your rifles out from across the room and referred to the work as contemporary...I simply mean the following. If a team of the best of the best at aging rifles to make them look 200 years old took one of yours and aged it to perfection....I could still tell it was your work. I mean zero offense in the term "contemporary"...I'm a huge fan of your work. Best Regards -Aaron
- Aaron C
At the work bench.