A Shooters Nightmare

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are a couple of images which represent a shooters nightmare ,this happened to a competitor and took place at our sporting clay shoot  on Sunday gone .What was the cause this we will never know for certain it could have been metal fatigue  or an obstruction and after I examined the gun I came to the conclusion that it was the shot wad which instead of seating down  on the shot column lodged in the barrel and the ramrod had by passed it , this would cause an obstruction this is my opinion but it could be wrong.This gun was a original live pigeon gun with Damascus barrel for which the shooter had used for a great number of years, luckily no one was hurt.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

Most unfortunate - it's a Canoe Gun now. Sure had a nice bore.

[Levy]

It looks like it failed down the middle of the top strap or flat where it was very thin.  It makes me wonder how the top flat was constructed.  Was the top strap filed out of an otherwise round barrel leaving it too thin there?  Probably never know for sure what happened.

James Levy

[Feltwad]

I am sure that the top strap or has we refere to it as the sighting plain is roughly forged and file finished.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

Appears to be the quite normal, 'obstruction', burst. The steel is very thin everywhere, isn't it. It wouldn't take much of a pit to make it start - once started, it's gone.

[LynnC]

WOW - THIN!

Note how in the picture on this side of the barrel at each end of the split it seemed to follow the angle of the weld seams.

Glad nobody got hurt........................Lynn

[George Sutton]

I wonder, did he ever have the barrel magnafluxed? This would show a weakness in the seam of the weld.

Centershot

[Daryl]

WOW - THIN!

Note how in the picture on this side of the barrel at each end of the split it seemed to follow the angle of the weld seams.

Glad nobody got hurt........................Lynn

Normal way for damascus to blow - usually on the iron seam, I think. This is one reason Lenn wants to get a new barrel made following the original shape for his H. Wahl ball and shot gun.  I've placed with this gun in two events, smoothbore round ball and trap.  It's a .75 cal, ie: 11 bore.

[Dphariss]

Damascus shotgun barrels are easily damaged. If bumped etc they can break a weld.
If shooting one of the corrosive substitute powders it may have ate a hole.

Its another reason I cannot tell someone an old gun is safe to shoot.
They are not.

Dan

[Feltwad]

Providing that Damascus barrels are in good condition they are just has safe to shoot as any steel barrel .What happened to the gun in question was a obstruction and could and would have happened to any gun . I have shot Damascus barreled guns for 61 years but the advantage we have hear in the UK over American shooters  which is the proof house.There are many Damascus barrel guns go for proof every week  mostly early breech loaders and 80% are proofed for nitro.
Feltwad

[Levy]

I'm going to plead a lack of understanding of what you've said or just my ignorance, but it looks like the shotgun has a reasonable sized button on the end of the ramrod, which would make it very difficult for an overshot card to be left sideways in the barrel.  Unless you've scored the overshot card to allow the escape of air pressure, there should have been some resistance noted upon loading the card (and the usual sound associated with it).  Even if you started the card in the bore sideways, it would be difficult for it to have stayed that way.  If you tipped the muzzle down before firing, then at least some of the shot would have rolled out.  If it was fired with all of the shot load where it was supposed to be (at the breech) and the card turned sideways, then where does the excess pressure come from to burst the barrel?  Wouldn't the build up of pressure escape around both sides of the card?  Even if the card turned and sealed the bore as the shot charge approached, would that create enough of an obstruction to blow the barrel like that?  I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, but reading what you've said and looking at the pictures raised these questions for me.  I would like to see more elaboration on these points.

James Levy 

[Dphariss]

Providing that Damascus barrels are in good condition they are just has safe to shoot as any steel barrel .What happened to the gun in question was a obstruction and could and would have happened to any gun . I have shot Damascus barreled guns for 61 years but the advantage we have hear in the UK over American shooters  which is the proof house.There are many Damascus barrel guns go for proof every week  mostly early breech loaders and 80% are proofed for nitro.
Feltwad

There is nothing wrong with damascus as a barrel material.
HOWEVER, no old barrel can be considered suitable for shooting. To many variables. Material, quality of the work, abuse in the past, overloads, pitting barrels with invisible damage from being dropped or banged/bumped which can break or weak damascus barrels.
On double guns, according to Greener. A bump on one barrel can break a weld in the other.
This barrel could have been damaged at any time in its long history.
Note the flaw, ding or dent just behind the break.
The barrel is pitted and this is another way to promote failure. Then there is the possibility of some small flaw in a weld that finally got tired of the abuse of being fired. Perhaps the barrel work hardened over time. Has happened in the recent past with modern shotgun barrels.
The corrosive "replica powders" can eat "crawdad holes" in steel if it were ever used in the gun it could have been the cause since it is very hard to get stopped once started.
I submit that it was not a wad, there is no defined ring, but simply a case of the barrel finally giving up and breaking.

People need to understand that they can shoot old guns all they want. But they need to have an understanding that there is a level of risk involved in this activity. This allows them to make an informed choice.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

All I can add is, man...it's paper thin!!

[Daryl]

All I can add is, man...it's paper thin!!

Yup - looks like something the current East Indian Musket makers polished down from a length of seamless tubing for one of their 'English' or 'French' muskets - starting with 1.00" pipe being the breech of a .75. That gives a .125 wall at the breech, with less where the threads aren't covered.  They then taper thinner to the muzzle, all done on belt sanders - by hand.

[Dphariss]

I was wondering if the bore had been "cleaned" at sometime and the bore enlarged as a result.

It looks like it only got a .010" wall from the looks of the photo.

Dan

[Jerry V Lape]

It is interesting that the major tear cut directly across all the strands horizontally.  I have seen several other photos of damascus barrels damaged deliberately with excessive pressure loads.  They tended to follow the seams more than cutting across so many strands of iron/steel.  Perhaps this barrel had been struck (filed) improperly originally which would help create the long lateral failure.  Even so, I would still suspect a bore blockage of some nature that far foward of the breech area. 

[Dphariss]

Damascus barrels were typically cold hammered to harden them to make them less likely to bulge at proof.
Barrels that bulged at proof could be hammered back down and reproved and if they passed they were then stamped as proved just like any other barrel. This from Greener.
In a barrel this thin the work hardening may have continued as it flexed in firing until the barrel became too hard and simply broke.
This occurred with major maker of shotguns some years back. They used a workhardening steel, 1140M, and several "broke" and people were injured.

Dan

[Daryl]

I recall that episode, Dan.  I think some of the barrels that let go, were the exceptionally thin ones encased in carbon - Winchester "Carbon-Lite" comes to mind. - perhaps not.

[Feltwad]

At the beginning of this thread  I said that the burst of this gun was due to a obstruction and that was a overshot wad that was by passed by the ramrod  and left  on the wall of the bore, I still hold to that as I personally examined the gun .Yes the barrel walls look to be on the thin side I would say that at some time they may have been lapped out if so they would have been reproved at the proof house which would check the wall thickness and bore condition.I have known this gun for the past 20 years and it has been shot regular at clay pigeon competitions.As for hardening of barrels I have worked on hundreds of Damascus barrels from the plain stub twist to the rose scroll and I have found that a Damascus barrel is flexable you can whittle a Damascus barrel just as you whittle a stick of wood. I have seen a number of burst barrels and all have been obstructions  some of a common nature and some rather bizare, the most common is snow and earth ,next would be wads etc , the most bizare was a spiders web this happened to a relation of mine on an early breech loader it was a double barrel  shotgun with Damascus barrels on examine the good barrel there was also a spider web in that barrel this gun burst 3inches from the muzzle and the top rib curled back like a enlarged clock spring .

Feltwad