Author Topic: Construction of secondary long nosecap on club butt fowler (Read 3113 times)

rich pierce · « **on:** December 17, 2023, 02:39:30 AM »

My current build is based on CB-6 and CB-7 in Grinslade’s book on Flintlock Fowlers. Like a number of these used for militia use it appears that 4” or a bit more of the forestock was cut off and a long, round brass nosecap added, held in place by the underlug near the muzzle. See the picture below.

Questions:
1) is any wood remaining beneath this nosecap?
2) is the top edge of the brass nosecap a single thickness of rolled over?
3 how is it kept from sliding forward? Looks like it’s not pinned THROUGH the nosecap but BENEATH the nosecap
4) is it generally accepted that these are secondary work associated with adaptation for militia use?

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** December 17, 2023, 02:44:35 AM »

By the looks of the muzzle sticking out of the end cap, there is no wood, there, but at the base, where it is tapered, I suspect the wood bleeds off (diminishes to zero) by the time it
gets past the 1st 2 grooves.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** December 17, 2023, 07:45:40 AM »

These seem to be purpose built this way. There was one that was a basket case came through RIACO 10 or 15 years ago that I studied closely. No wood under the brass except where it meets the stock. Just one pin through an under lug is all that holds it on. I'm going to try one this winter.

Adrie luke · « **Reply #3 on:** December 17, 2023, 12:50:13 PM »

rich pierce · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2023, 05:31:17 PM »

Thanks guys!
Adrie Luke, how do you think the nosecap is fastened on the one pictured? I’m still trying to understand why they do not slip forward unless there’s a rivet at the rear where there is still some wood to rivet to. Or a rivet or screw up to the barrel. Anyone else see how it’s prevented from slipping forward?

Most seem to have an underlug sticking through but I cannot see a pin. Confusing.

smart dog · « **Reply #5 on:** December 17, 2023, 07:09:40 PM »

Hi Rich,
It almost looks like there is a barrel lug that goes through the brass cap and then some sort of tennon pin (perhaps tapered) goes through the lug anchoring the cap. That lug inserted all the way through the cap would prevent it from sliding forward.

dave

Adrie luke · « **Reply #6 on:** December 17, 2023, 07:19:59 PM »

What Mike said

Click to make larger

Adrie

Adrie luke · « **Reply #7 on:** December 17, 2023, 07:52:14 PM »

Rich here a visible barrelkey

rich pierce · « **Reply #8 on:** December 17, 2023, 09:22:52 PM »

Thanks Adrie. My brain is like soup sometimes. Now I realize that the nosecap has a slot for the barrel tenon and that keeps it from moving fore and aft. Should have been obvious.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2023, 11:01:39 PM »

Is it possible that this muzzle cap is simply a shim to take up the slack of a bayonet that has too large a tube? The barrel tennon may be the lug that secures the bayonet.

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** December 18, 2023, 11:34:56 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on December 18, 2023, 11:01:39 PM

Is it possible that this muzzle cap is simply a shim to take up the slack of a bayonet that has too large a tube? The barrel tennon may be the lug that secures the bayonet.

Could be, but it’s a common style on club butt fowlers.

bluenoser · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2023, 01:16:22 AM »

Wouldn't the front sight located forward of the lug interfere with a bayonet?

Daryl · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2023, 04:47:58 AM »

Wouldn't the club butt muskets predate the socket bayonet?

rich pierce · « **Reply #13 on:** December 19, 2023, 05:05:43 AM »

Quote from: Daryl on December 19, 2023, 04:47:58 AM

Wouldn't the club butt muskets predate the socket bayonet?

Per Grinslade’s book on Colonial Fowlers, club-butt fowlers were made through and after the Revolutionary War.

Adrie luke · « **Reply #14 on:** December 19, 2023, 11:05:51 AM »

Here's some reading

https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/2004-B89-Eighteenth-Century-American-Fowlers-The-.pdf

flatsguide · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2023, 06:02:32 PM »

It looks like the brass is much thicker than a normal brass nose cap. Maybe about a 1/16 or 3/32. In the image that Adrienne sent it might have been thick than above. Note the foreword end were it appears to have a lip that that was filed? in.
Cheers Richard

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2023, 06:47:51 PM »

Quote from: flatsguide on December 20, 2023, 06:02:32 PM

It looks like the brass is much thicker than a normal brass nose cap. Maybe about a 1/16 or 3/32. In the image that Adrienne sent it might have been thick than above. Note the foreword end were it appears to have a lip that that was filed? in.
Cheers Richard

Thanks. I looked at that one but I can’t make sense of that picture with the nosecap with the lip. It’s not held in place by the lug as most are. I don’t think it’s typical.

2 shots · « **Reply #17 on:** December 20, 2023, 06:50:59 PM »

looks like that lug may have gone through the cap to act as a bayonet lug also.??

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** December 20, 2023, 06:54:24 PM »

I know next to nothing about bayonet lugs but thought they were substantial and brazed on. I’m not going to bayonet any turkeys! I hope!

smart dog · « **Reply #19 on:** December 20, 2023, 07:23:29 PM »

Quote from: 2 shots on December 20, 2023, 06:50:59 PM

looks like that lug may have gone through the cap to act as a bayonet lug also.??

Hi,
No, it was not for a bayonet. The front sight would interfere.

dave

2 shots · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2023, 12:05:59 AM »

seems like a bayonet would clear the one adrie luke is showing , no? i thought colonial bayonets where made to fit the guns they were going at the time. [minus of course besses and charlevilles]

smart dog · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2023, 04:08:23 AM »

Hi,
No, the one Adrie Luke shows would have a very short and weak socket. It is not for a bayonet nor does that possibly apply to the original gun Rich highlighted. This is a decorative cap and not to fit a bayonet.

dave

rich pierce · « **Reply #22 on:** December 21, 2023, 04:29:08 AM »

In many cases during the 1770-1790 era the ends of the forestocks of fowlers were often cut back for a bayonet, but that does not seem to be the case with this group of club butt fowlers. An underlug n a dovetail is not strong enough to hold a bayonet in place. A wide, low, brazed lug is needed. Imagine twisting a tight bayonet over that thin nosecap held in place with a thin dovetailed underlug and thrusting it into a bale of hay with all your strength. That would get mangled in a hurry, I’d think. We don’t see many club-butt fowlers here except for a couple Mike Brooks has made so there’s not been much exposure or discussion of the variations here. Grinslade and others suppose this type of nosecap was the product of just one or a couple shops.

Thanks everyone for the interest and input!

bluenoser · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2023, 05:15:15 PM »

A question about the function of the nose cap:
The way the nose cap overlaps the end of the forestock suggests the nose cap could negate the need for a forward barrel pin. Do these fowlers tend to have an upper barrel pin in the usual place, or are they omitted?

rich pierce · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2023, 05:47:27 PM »

I’m guessing the nosecap protected the end grain of the forestock from whatever it is nosecap protect the stock from. Water when cleaning? The cone shape at the rear with the nosecap held firmly in place by the lug should snug the stock up to the barrel. We will find out! I used just 3 pins on this short 39” turkey choke 20 gauge barrel. It’s going to be a diminutive club butt for sure. Maybe 7 pounds.

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Author Topic: Construction of secondary long nosecap on club butt fowler (Read 3113 times)