Author Topic: L&R Late American Flintlock  (Read 3013 times)

Offline moleeyes36

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« on: December 27, 2023, 07:18:33 PM »
Does anyone have direct experience with the L&R Late American Flintlock?  Considering it as a possibility for a pistol and the 4 3/8 x 7/8 inch dimensions catch my eye.  So, if you've used one in a project, I'd appreciated your feedback.  Thanks in advance.

Don Richards
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2023, 09:52:28 PM »
Richard, if you're referring to the so-called L & R Ashmore lock, I can offer some suggestions.  When the lock first came out, it was pretty decent right out of the box/bag.  It had a powerful cast mainspring, a short hammer throw, was fast and gave excellent ignition.  But it has deteriorated quality wise over the years, and is a good candidate for some tuning to get it up to speed.  This is an opportunity for a gunmaker to learn some satisfying skills on how to improve a flintlock''s action and performance.
As received, the first thing you'll notice apart from the total lack of attention to finishing on the lock, especially the guts, is that the action feels sluggish and 'tight'.  Here's what I found on the last one I used in a build.
The threaded end of the 6 x 40 sear screw is cut too far up the shank.  Consequently, when it is tight, it crushes the end of the bridle against the sear, squeezing it between the bridle and the plate, thus interfering with its travel.  It cannot snap in and out of the tumbler notches cleanly.  There are two things going on here, and I'll get to the second one shortly.  The fix is to chuck the screw by its threads in your drill press, and with a safe sided 6" mill bastard file, remove some steel from the inside of the head, effectively lengthening the shank.  That will give the screw enough clearance to eliminate the binding problem.
The second part of the problem is the sear spring.  There are two things wrong with the sear spring.  First, the lower working arm of the spring lies too flat against the sear, limiting the sear's upward travel, and secondly, their assemblers grind off the tip of the sear spring making it too short.  The result of this belt grinder work, is that the sear spring bears against the sear some 3/16" behind the boss of the sear.  Consequently,, the mechanical advantage of the sear is lost, and trigger pull dramatically increased in order to get the sear to drop out of the full cock notch.  Two things dramatically improve this situation, and one of them is not to throw the lock in the garbage!  First, file the back of the sear's boss to remove the radius cast into the sear.  I hope my photograph will explain what I mean here.  Polish the back of the sear where the spring will press.
Second, the factory fitting of the sear has shortened the working arm of the spring...it should press on the sear as close to the sear's screw hole as possible.  To rectify that, heat the spring red, and straighten it out flat, with gently taps of a smooth hammer on the tail of your machinist's vise.  While it is flat, file the spring's thickness down to a taper to the tip, and again, polish out your file work.  You can diminish the spring's thickness here to about half the factory thickness.  Again, my photos should describe this better.  Now, heat it red again, and bend the spring further up toward the eye, and gently hammer it down to decrease the bend.  Spread the limbs to give the spring tension.  Polish it, and then harden and temper it.  This spring is thin, so  eye balling the heat colours in a propane flame is adequate.  Check out my photos for the before and after.
The lock plate of this lock has a very subtle bevel along it's edge.  Your two choices are to file the plate flat which would best suit a Hawken rifle, or file decent bevels and a tail decoration, as the lock as cast isn't particularly attractive.  I chose the later in this example, and added a little engraving.
Now, the frizzen spring...as received, this spring has been poorly heat treated.  It is too hard.  These springs as received will break, one after another.  So polish the spring, and draw the temper to an even bright blue and let it cool naturally.  You shouldn't need a replacement after this.  I have sent all of this info together with a file of photos to L & R but I received no reply.
Here's my collection of photos to accompany this missive...












« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:08:27 PM by Tim Crosby »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline moleeyes36

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2023, 10:13:44 PM »
Thank you, Taylor.  That’s the helpful kind of reply I wanted. 

Don Richards
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:08:03 PM by Tim Crosby »
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Offline Bob Roller

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2023, 10:25:00 PM »
As a platform for a custom or bench crafted mechanism the L&R is ideal and I used a lot of them and made locks for the German target pistols of Helmut Mohr in Mayen/Hausen.the LOCK is on the BACK side of the plate and it is a spring driven engine,nothing more or less.
My very favorite locks are patterned after the high end English types from the percussion era.Production is the operational word,get it made and out the door.i was well paid for my work in Germany and they wondered why anyone would buy locks that had to be redone when new.
Making anything in this field of work can be a source of pleasure and that's the way it should be but building to meet a price is a bad idea.One more thing,a lock IS what makes the muzzle loader a useful thing and a quality lock is the only thing that will serve that purpose.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:09:02 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Spalding

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2023, 10:26:38 PM »
Taylor, I believe this is the lock Don is referring to. I’ve wondered about it too since the size would be nice for a small, skinny Southern gun, but I’ve never heard of any reviews other than L&R’s questionable quality control. Jim K’s locks have spoiled me as far as quality out of the box goes.
https://lr-rpl.com/product/late-american-flintlock-parts-2400/

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:09:24 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2023, 10:42:35 PM »
Hey Bob...I had no idea that that lock existed -- I've never seen one.  It certainly isn't the Late Ashmore lock I'm used to.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:09:43 PM by Tim Crosby »
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline moleeyes36

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2023, 10:55:25 PM »
Bob,

Yes, that's the lock I was referring to.  However, what Taylor provided is good information and gives someone that does get an L&R something to look for. 

The last thing I wanted to do is get a thread going about the pros and cons of L&R, Siler, Kibler, or anyone else's locks.  I've had a few L&R locks in the past with only one that was truly poor quality, and that was one of their RPL locks.  I currently have only one gun with a l&R lock; it has a Durs Egg flintlock that is a great performer with many hundreds of shots and it keeps going right along.  I've had, and currently have, several Siler locks on guns.  They've all been acceptable.  I've had a couple of rifles with Kibler locks and found them also to be acceptable pretty much right out of the box.  I'm casting no spears or throwing no roses at any of these locks.  Your experience with any of these locks may differ.

Don Richards

« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:10:04 PM by Tim Crosby »
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Offline Steeltrap

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2023, 11:29:53 PM »
Pecatonica River list one they call "The Manton" on their web site.  http://www.longrifles-pr.com/landrlocks.shtml

I dunno if this is a "price driven" lock but they show it at $160.

Not the same style as the OP but the same size as the one the OP referred to.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:10:25 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2023, 02:04:48 AM »
  Don,
 You would be better off using a Kibler Ketland - it's only 3/8" longer and .050" taller.  A friend had a pistol built with the L&R 2400.  It was given to me to engrave.  Before I engraved it I called my friend verifying that he really wanted me to engrave that lock.  The quality was not good.  The fit between tumbler shafts and bridle holes was loose.  The tumbler was crooked. The frizzen didn't fit well.  One of the screw holes through the bridal was so close to the edge that the screw was only 270 degrees inside the edge of the bridle. 
  The pistol wasn't really going to be shot much if at all so he told me to go ahead.  I would look elsewhere for a pistol lock. Jim Kibler's Ketland or Jim Chambers Queen Anne Pistol Flintlock.
Kevin
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:10:45 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline moleeyes36

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2023, 05:19:08 AM »
Kevin,

I’m familiar with both of those locks.  Not what I’m looking for.  We’re getting off what I asked in the original post and getting into pros and cons of various locks, which is where I wanted not to go.  However, thanks for your input.

Don Richards
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:11:03 PM by Tim Crosby »
Don Richards
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Offline L. Akers

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2023, 05:45:31 PM »
Bob, I recently bought on of these locks to use on a pistol.  I happen to be one who really likes L&R locks.  They offer a wide variety of styles and the only "pistol-sized" locks, other than the small Siler.  True, L&R locks require some "smithing" but I enjoy making a silk purse from a sow's ear.  The first thing I noticed upon receiving the lock was the hammer shoulder did not contact the top of the lockplate.  A little filing on the bridle got the shoulder-lockplate and the tumbler-bridle contact to coincide and moved the toe of the mainspring further toward the end of the tumbler toe.  The sear spring needed modifying per Taylor's instruction.  Then, on ALL locks I look at tumbler side-to-side movement with the mainspring removed and file the bridle contact surface to eliminate play.  I polish the tumbler axle-hole in the lockplate and the tumbler axles and bearing surfaces.  If the fit is then "sloppy" I open the axle-hole in the lockplate, press in a bearing and ream it to fit the axle.  Same with the bridle.  the lock I received was good on both counts.  I work on the sear screw to get it to properly bottom without pinching the bridle.  I had to remove material from the underside of the screw head.  Then it's mostly filing and polishing parting lines, casting gate marks and the sandblasted surfaces.  Once smithed, L&R locks are excellent performers.  I was shooting my flint pistol (L&R lock) at Friendship last fall and a fellow shooter remarked, "Wow!  That thing is so fast the bullet is out of the barrel before the hammer is full down!".
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:11:24 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Bob Roller

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2023, 09:19:58 PM »
That is a redone Shoults lock and I remember it was called "The American" lock. It was available as a kit and the slot for the frizzen
to go in had to be milled/slotted either by hand or a milling machine.Most of the L&R locks are to me a chassis that needs an engine
and that is custom work.As stated earlier,most of these I made went to Germany beginning in the late 1970's.Their Dius Egg lock is
another good one for a mechanism and I made a few with bridle on 3 posts and the sear on an axle.Their "Late English" lock also has
a lot of room for a new set of parts.I used what was my Hawken internals and it worked well.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 12:56:36 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline L. Akers

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2023, 10:23:45 PM »
Addendum (because I forgot) to my last.  The internal surfaces of the lockplate were flat, smooth and parallel.  The outer surface had a sunken area from mold shrikage that was not real noticeable until compared to a straight edge.  The frizzen fit was really sloppy.  The frizzen to pan fit required some filing to eliminate gaps.  The frizzen screw required a  .012" thick washer  between the lockplate and frizzen to take up the slop.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:12:06 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Bob Roller

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2023, 10:57:59 PM »
The lock I made for the Germans were mainly the L&R Manton with a mechanism I was using in the Chet Shoults Ketland.
It had a proven record  before I ever thought of a European market and it is a good looking little lock inside and outside'
I sent them either unpolished or with the first polish that got rid of the gray (sand blast?) they came with from L&R.
There are a few of these here in the USA and Canada but I kept no records as to who got them no matter where they went.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:12:26 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Mike payne

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L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2023, 03:33:41 PM »
I have had very good results with L&R locks. When I get a lock from them I do take them apart and polish the the inside of the lock plate. Then the outside gets what ever finish I want. Last year I had one of their Queen Anne locks stop sparking after 12 years and many thousands of rounds. Sent it back to them to repair. I expected to pay for repair but they repaired it sent back with no charge said it was under warranty. I have no complaints with L&R.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:17:23 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Top Jaw

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2023, 10:00:26 PM »
I have a pistol I picked up at an estate sale built by a gentleman in Indiana. Has an L&R Bailes lock in it. It’s been polished and tuned up a little.  It is very smooth, an excellent sparker, and easy on flints.   





« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 10:04:44 PM by Top Jaw »

Offline TDM

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2023, 10:51:38 PM »
As said, L&R locks are fine as long as they’re properly polished and tuned. They present a good avenue for learning the process.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2023, 10:57:45 PM »
As said, L&R locks are fine as long as they’re properly polished and tuned. They present a good avenue for learning the process.

In other words, after they are fixed.  Sometime proper fixing is difficult to near impossible.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2023, 11:57:25 PM »
L&R had problems with cast mainsprings,some with catastrophic results.I got many requests for new mainsprings from individuals
and dealers.The worst of these was a spring that broke at full cock and knocked the bottom of the lock mortise off.As I said,these
locks furnished me with a chassis to mount a more refined set of parts.So did the Russ Hamm Maslin but they were not what was
needed in the Rheinland but I did sell some here.The cast mainsprings seemed to be stiff and I wonder if that could have caused
a broken link and the blown out lock mortises.All this was decades ago and I still stand by my remark that what I sent out showed
the new owner what I thought of him or her* as the buyer and me as the maker.
Bob Roller
*Katerina Marlena ???? European girl bought 7 of my Ketlands for a team. 6 to use and one as a backup.
One thing more.MOST of these locks and triggers are made for hobbyists with other more serious things
to buy with funds available and there are those who can build to suit a price but I never could or did and
now it makes no difference as far as income is concerned. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 12:19:19 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline alacran

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2024, 12:37:40 PM »
I have two Manton locks on my target pistols. One is flint and the other is a capper. I like to leave my flintlocks in the white, so like Bob says you have to file off the bead blasting. I haven't done much on the way of smithing either lock other than polishing the inner plate and the engagement surfaces.
The frizzen on the flinter has no slop.  I use single set triggers that Larry Akers make. So, there is not much need to do extensive tuning.
It has been my experience with L&R if you think you have a particular problem with a lock, send it back. It will come back fixed within the week.
When it comes down to it the L& R Manton is $100.00 less than anything else that is out there. They are very fast reliable locks which have served me well for thousands of shots.






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Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2024, 05:25:01 PM »
I have an L&R Late American Lock on a pistol I built from MBS. It is quick and sparks well.



« Last Edit: January 06, 2024, 05:31:50 PM by Bob Gerard »

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2024, 06:57:25 PM »
Pecatonica River list one they call "The Manton" on their web site.  http://www.longrifles-pr.com/landrlocks.shtml

I dunno if this is a "price driven" lock but they show it at $160.

Not the same style as the OP but the same size as the one the OP referred to.

I think $160.00 is a 2014 price, scroll clear to the bottom of the page.

Offline Martin S.

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2024, 08:07:30 PM »
I actually stopped in at Pecatonica this fall.  They were surprised to see me, as they said they are mostly mail order.

They didn't have many things listed on their website, and admitted the website was woefully out of date.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: L&R Late American Flintlock
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2024, 10:11:51 PM »
This has been posted before and by me but here it is again.The first owners of L&R lock Co. were shown some fine English locks owned by Tom Dawson (1930-1989 and some that
I had made for him and got a reply citing "production expedients"and quality control was something else.They were at that time.new to the market and many rifle makers based the guns on external appearances and the "lock"meant only the external parts and that may be true today.Cast mainsprings were a real problem more than one person said that cocking the lock was a source of worry and as mentioned in another post,if the spring broke at full cock it could wreck a lock mortise and did.Lack of fine detailing in a lock mechanism doesn't mean it's a junk lock and most American guns from the muzzle loading era lack it in favor of function.Here in this area there was a group that shot at Bill Large's range and there was only ONE flintlock,a Ketland and no interest in them at all until Chet Shouts offered one and it was thought to have been made by a master machinist and offered in 3 grades for $25-$35 and $50 grades.FIFTY dollars for a gun lock was unheard of and there was grumbling even at $25.It was ALL precision castings and only the screws needed to be made.The man who financed the locks
told me those moulds cost $5000 in the early 1950's when they were made.I was given the opportunity to buy the parts to make this lock and chose to use only the external parts and for years I did use these parts.Chet told me he was glad I was able to use these parts and also declined my offer to give him some for a restart.
Getting back to quality control,it will come when it's demanded and now it is better than ever if what is shown here is any indication.
Bob Roller