Author Topic: Question About Shellac  (Read 2946 times)

Offline PHolder

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Question About Shellac
« on: January 03, 2024, 06:37:46 PM »
I saw Mitch Yates' video about finishing.  He discusses using  thin cut shellac as a sealer followed up by the finish of choice.  Do I understand this correctly?
I am assuming if you steel wool the coat of shellac back any oil finish will absorb correctly. 

I am gathering information before my first build, in cherry.  Plan Plan Plan Overthink. 

I also carve comfort birds out of basswood and butternut, and have finished them with pure tung oil and Danish Oil, both store bought and DIY.  I love the glow oil gives them but the color along the endgrain is darker, especially on the front, than the rest of the bird.  Wondering if a thin cut of shellac followed by oil would even out the color. 

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2024, 07:10:28 PM »
Shellac works well as a sealer. Make sure your steel wool is not oiled which is common for rust preventative purposes. You could use a cleaner like paint thinner after the steel wool to make the surface is free of anything that would adversely affect the varnish from applying evenly.

Offline reddogge

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2024, 07:52:13 PM »
I've only used shellac as a sealer on carved decoys. Then they got painted. On the butternut, I just used straight tung oil for an unpainted naturally finished shorebird.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2024, 08:38:06 PM »
I also restore antique radios.  One common way is to use a very thin coat of shellac over the filler coat.  Then lacquer is uses as a top coat.  That coat contains the color. That process does not show that grain to it's best advantage. 

On guns I never use shellac.  I do not see the point.  What are we trying to seal?  Why is it desirable?  The top coat material seals just fine.  The main finish absorbs into the wood giving good adhesion.  Putting shellac in it's place makes a barrier between two different finishes. 

Shellac is alcohol based.  The top coat is oil based.  I do not see how one bonds to the other better than using one product for everything.  Also, shellac is not waterproof.  On furniture you get white rings from sweaty glasses.  I don't think that is a good characteristic on a gunstock. 

Lots of people use shellac.  IT obviously works.  Then again, finishing gunstocks is not complicated and is very forgiving based on all the different ways people approach it. 

Offline tallbear

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2024, 08:38:46 PM »
PH Holder

You are correct I use a spit coat of" Seed Lac" before using whatever I'm using for a finish.I prefer to mix my own rather than buy premade shellac as shellac has a short shelf life and old shellac will not get as hard.I mix a new batch every 6 months or so.I don;t know that this will even out your color but you can give it a try.

I started doing this after a discussion about 18th Century Furniture finishes with Wallace Gusler many years ago in KY.The combination provide a better moisture barrier than using each finish as a stand alone.It has something to do with how water vapor vs water droplets pernitrate a finish.

There is a lot of information about Lac to be found here  https://www.shellac.net/

I don't use steel wool between coats but prefer gray Scotch Brite #7448

Mitch

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2024, 09:39:12 PM »
The finish on some woods tends to be blotchy due to variations in grain density and orientation - flat grain here and end grain there.  Cherry can be particularly blotchy.  A wash coat of thin shellac is applied to even out the absorption of the finish.  The shellac is followed by a  very lightly sanding.  It tends to even out a stain and I have not seen any negative consequences of using it under AF.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2024, 11:02:37 PM »
I’ve been using shellac for a good while now with fine results. It’s best to make your own- easy to make (always use De-waxed shellac) with various types available (amber and blond the most popular). You can get good stuff from Shellac Shack.
I just take some flakes and toss them into a jar of denatured alcohol, tighten the lid, shake and stir and allow to dissolve. May take several hours depending on how thick or thin you want it.
You can apply right over boiled linseed oil if you like, to get nice depth of color. Use an applicator not a brush!
Stuff in the can may have gone beyond its shelf life ( notice they don’t date them any more!).

Offline JasonR

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2024, 11:27:20 PM »
Best bet is to practice on scraps of that cherry stock. This would be step 4999 of 5000 so take your time, study, and make sure your previous steps are correct (ie. design/layout/execution). Your finish should be decided on your opinion of those scraps. Best wishes.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2024, 12:47:45 AM »
A one to two pound cut is generally used as a sealer

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2024, 06:39:01 AM »
I have been following shellac discussions for a awhile now. I watched Mitch Yates presentation several times and reviewed several blogs on making period varnish.

It seems that shellac is used to provide a humidity barrier that seals better than oil/varnish, and I get that. But I also read many times that original rifles were not finished in the barrel channel or under the furniture. There are still open pores where rain and humidity can enter the stock such as ram rod/barrel channels, patch box, buttplate, and lock bolts.

If you are not sealing the entire stock, why does it matter if you use a humidity barrier on the visible wood surface?

Just curious what others are thinking.

DAve

Offline tallbear

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2024, 04:11:24 PM »
Dave

   While it's true original guns show no signs of finish inside barrel channels and lock mortices I do apply my spit coat of shellac in the barrel channel,lock mortice and patchbox cavity. I don't apply any stain or topcoat finish to these areas.The spit coat of shellac is unnoticeable for the most part and provides some added protection if my customers are a little overzealous in oiling their locks or barrels(which can seep out the touch hole).I have seen some wood degradation due to oil saturation on old guns and since I can't control how much oil my customers may use I feel the shellac is a beneficial .I highly recommend you DO NOT saturate near the buttplate or apply the shellac under the buttplate.This causes the wood to swell proud of the  buttplate and is unsightly and can cause other problems.

  Another advantage I've found to the spit coat of shellac is when it comes to whiskering.I use Iron of Nitrate stain which is water based.This causes the grain to raise even if properly whiskered.The shellac freezes these whiskers allowing them to be cut off by the scotch brite pad prior to final finish .This is particularly helpful when finishing American walnut as it's grain continues to raise even if properly whiskered.By doing this the whiskers are easier to clean up resulting in a better final finish.

  And yet another advantage of the shellac spit coat is it's acts as a barrier between the Nitrate of Iron Stain and your Linseed oil based top coat(if you use a Linseed oil based top coat vs a tung oil based top coat) I make my own Nitrate of iron stain and prefer a slightly acidic stain.I find it gives me better results than a neutral stain.If there is some residual acidity after the staining process this has the remote possibility of saponifying the Linseed Oil based top Coat and softening it over time.By using the shellac as a buffer it reduces the possibility of this happening.

Mitch
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 04:17:33 PM by tallbear »

Offline PHolder

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2024, 06:39:44 PM »
Thank you all for the information and discussion. 

Offline PHolder

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2024, 05:45:18 AM »
@tallbear  Is there a reason you use Seed-Lac as opposed to some of the more refined, dewaxed shellacs?

Offline tallbear

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2024, 06:16:47 PM »
I use the seed lac as I tend to gravitate towards 18th Century tools/materials in my work.I believe Seed lac was what was probably imported and available here in the 18th century and it serves well for my purposes.A while back I experimented with different grades and colors of shellac that I got from Kremer Pigments and noticed no real difference in the final color than what I got with the seed lac used the way I use it.So I'll probably stick with Seed lac going forward as it's suits my purposes well and is more cost effective since I discard what I've mixed up regularly due to age.

Mitch

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2024, 07:12:58 PM »
Seems to me I read it on this forum some time ago that J. Kuntz used some kind of " stain " mixed in with shellac to make a " violin " finish on some of his guns. Would this be correct or possible ? :-\

Offline PHolder

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2024, 10:12:20 PM »
I use the seed lac as I tend to gravitate towards 18th Century tools/materials in my work.I believe Seed lac was what was probably imported and available here in the 18th century and it serves well for my purposes.A while back I experimented with different grades and colors of shellac that I got from Kremer Pigments and noticed no real difference in the final color than what I got with the seed lac used the way I use it.So I'll probably stick with Seed lac going forward as it's suits my purposes well and is more cost effective since I discard what I've mixed up regularly due to age.

Mitch

Thank you!!

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2024, 02:51:25 PM »
PS; you do need to sand after applying shellac as it feathers the wood surface.

Offline RodelIturalde

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2024, 03:21:08 PM »
I have a Kibler colonial kit in tiger maple and I’m just about finished. It’s been a real labor of love. I took the stock to my uncles wood shop in Williamsburg, VA last night and did two runs of aqua fortis on it. He gave me a jar of orange shellac he made to finish. Apparently the curator of weapons at colonial Williamsburg (where my uncle volunteers in the furniture restoration lab) told him this would be appropriate. I wanted to get the forums take on this and also ask for any tips. While being an expert on 18th century furniture, my uncle has made furniture for CW and Mount Vernon, he admits he doesn’t know 18th century gun stock finishing as well. Anything the forum can share would be helpful!

Offline J.M.Browning

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2024, 03:55:56 PM »
This is what I use   mineral paint thinner,  oil varnish and linseed Im sure its not traditional - you can use this for many processes with good results , touch ups . I have tinted - colored this mixture with LMF stain with good result . My subjective opinion if you have not applied much finish try your formula on other than the rifle .
Thank you Boone , Glass with all the contemplate I read with todays (shooter's lightly taken as such) , you keep things simple .

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2024, 04:48:23 PM »
Is a commercial type of shellac, like a Zinzer bullseye shellac, the same thing that is being discussed here? I've been reading about waxed vs unwanted stuff and I wonder where a product like bullseye rates with regard to this discussion.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2024, 05:09:24 PM »
I have read in some woodworking forums that Bullseye doesn’t date their product so you don’t know how long it’s been in storage. Best to mix your own. It’s easy and rather fool- proof, and always fresh!

Offline RodelIturalde

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2024, 05:52:10 PM »
No, this orange shellac was made with chips and denatured alcohol

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2024, 06:00:39 PM »
I saw Mitch Yates' video about finishing.  He discusses using  thin cut shellac as a sealer followed up by the finish of choice.  Do I understand this correctly?
I am assuming if you steel wool the coat of shellac back any oil finish will absorb correctly. 

I am gathering information before my first build, in cherry.  Plan Plan Plan Overthink. 

I also carve comfort birds out of basswood and butternut, and have finished them with pure tung oil and Danish Oil, both store bought and DIY.  I love the glow oil gives them but the color along the endgrain is darker, especially on the front, than the rest of the bird.  Wondering if a thin cut of shellac followed by oil would even out the color.
It will prevent the oil from penetrating I suspect. But try it, might work. Or painting it first with a small amount of real turpentine. Guessing here but try it on scraps. Reducing penetration of the oil is the goal. Allowing the oil to thicken over time will also reduce penetration. In the store bought stuff this means letting the solvents evaporate. It oil witn no solvents it means letting it “dry” to some greater or lessor extent. With boiled linseed oil this can make it almost into a paste that will fill open grained wood such as American Walnut much faster. Putting some in a jar with a cloth over the top and leave it for a time. Having not done anything with these solvent laden “finishes” since before I left the gun factory I have no idea how long it will take.
Bill Knight explained shellac on MLs to me saying it was apparently used by some back in the day, it is a “spirit” varnish. But he recommended it be made from amber shellac flakes and alcohol. He sent me some flakes but I have never made any. He said shellac is a pretty good sealer since it would only accept so much water vapor and then no more. IIRC.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2024, 06:01:41 PM »
No, this orange shellac was made with chips and denatured alcohol
Orange. That was the word I was groping for when I posted “amber”.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question About Shellac
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2024, 06:38:23 PM »
This is what I use   mineral paint thinner,  oil varnish and linseed Im sure its not traditional - you can use this for many processes with good results , touch ups . I have tinted - colored this mixture with LMF stain with good result . My subjective opinion if you have not applied much finish try your formula on other than the rifle .
Shop made Linseed Oil varnish is traditional and was common before the making of Linseed oil finishes was industrialized varnishes were made in house by the  gunsmith. That very dark finish seen on some original guns and rifles is not shellac. Its a linseed oil varnish. They added drier metals, lead acetate/carbonate etc was one, and cheap resins such as rosin, gum benzoin and others to make the varnish more water resistant.
IIRC JP Becks estate contained a “paint pot” which I am sure was used to make small batches of varnish for gunstocks.
Back to the black coloring. This varnish, commonly referred to as “brown varnish” I am told, will darken or even turn black due to the emissions of coal fires. Thus they are often much, much darker than when applied. Shellac does not do this. Finally furniture finishes, violin varnish etc are NOT very durable as a gunstock finish. The Violin Varnish for example was part of the tonal quality of the wood. And they used much harder resins such as Copal. But these high temperature resins were much harder to combine with the oil and unless very carefully done the heat would ruin the varnish. AND these were more brittle and likely to crack or craze with rapid temperature/humidity changes. A finish that does this on a firearm is useless for protecting the wood. A properly made “soft’ linseed oil varnish is actually elastic and will move with the wood without failing. If looking at 19th c rifles with this finish it will be seen that a dent cause by a rounded object will not break the finish unless very deep or done with and object that has a sharp edge that will break the surface film. A very hard, non-elastic plastic finish used on some modern brass suppository guns could be heard to crackle if brought in from -10/-20 temps to a warm room. You could literally hear the finish breaking and once cracked its then transparent to water. Artists “stand oil” was made by allowing the oil to air dry, since heating darkens it in a normal oxygenated atmosphere. The oil needs to be nearly colorless when mixing colors so the artist wanted a colorless, or nearly so, oil for the base. It used to be exposed to the sun and air in shallow pans to sun bleach and thicken. But of course it had to be protected from the weather brought inside at night or if there was a possibility of percipitation. Today is done in retorts basically in an oxygen free atmosphere where heating will not darken the oil. Much faster process.
There are a number of very good reasons to use a linseed oil varnish, though in at least a few “schools” of gunmaking spirit varnishes were used. But the properly made soft linseed oil varnish properly made is the most common and most durable finish for a GUNSTOCK. If we read W. Greeners “The Gun” 1835 we see that linseed was a common varnish. His comments on staining maple is REALLY interesting. It can be downloaded from the WWW just don’t confuse it with his son W.W. Greener’s work. I had to dig to find it. “The Gun and It’s Development” will come up a LOT. Since it was in print in many editions for a long time.
 Thanks to Bill Knight.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine