2 piece early Hawken butt plate

[Dave B]

I had picked up some Hawken parts a while back and want to make a two piece  early style butt plate. Having been to the Gloreitta Museum in NM and seeing so many early rifles the choices avalible for early Hawen butt plates are hard to come by. Having taken some detailed photos of an original i have started to make a loose copy of an early J&S Hawken 2
 piece butt plate. I made patterns from shim stock cut out .60 mild steel to be cold formed into what you see here.

One of the details i found in looking at the orininals is the apex of the curve on most of the 2 pc plates is tending to be more centerd in the crecent. The later cast plates have a higer apex toward the return. If you put a square on the return the 90 will mark almost the end of the toe within 1/4 " or right at the end of the toe.

[rich pierce]

That looks good. An original I saw disassembled had a rivet just visible connecting return and “shoe”.  Lots of braze on the inside at the joint.

[Dave B]

This is the only shot I have of a J & S Hawken 2 piece butt plate rivet. I have seen others but did not take a picture regretfully. This rivet is a lot closer to the end of the  joint than the others I have seen being 1/4"-3/16" back from the end of the heel.

[CooleyS]

These pictures are from an unmarked plains rifle that was made in St. Louis in the 1830’s. The shape and measurements are an exact match for the old J&S plans I have. The visible peened head of the rivet is large and the seam is brass brazed. I’m happy to provide any measurements you need.
-Steve

[Dphariss]

The rivet may or may not show after brazing most do. If the hole is counter sunk and the rivet well peaned it be very hard to see. I have not made a lot of Hawkens but I have never used a cast “Hawken” buttplate. I made one from the illustrations in Baird’s book in my late teens and never looked back. I cold bend the comb piece and hot form the rest finding that using a large round bar or the horn of an anvil to “crown” this piece will pretty well form the crescent shape at the same time. If when the large piece is cut out if one leaves a “handle” at the toe can make this process easier. 

[Dave B]

Steve thank you for the pictures. Yes i woud be inerested in your measurments of this butt plate.

[Steeltrap]

Interesting thickness of that butt plate. Appears the Hawken original may be thinner than current reproduction butt plates.

[rich pierce]

Interesting thickness of that butt plate. Appears the Hawken original may be thinner than current reproduction butt plates.

I think the later Sam Hawken buttplates were cast and heavier by far compared to earlier J&S Hawken buttplates. The one J&S buttplate was very thin. And the inlet was flat.  The wood underneath was not domed to support the wood where the screws were mounted.

[Dphariss]

The later buttplates were cast. It pretty apparent I suspect that this took place some time after the mid-1840s but?

[CooleyS]

Steve thank you for the pictures. Yes i woud be inerested in your measurments of this butt plate.

I’ll get those measurements tomorrow (hopefully)…if you have access to the old J&S plans then you can see that the buttplate on our family rifle is very close to the buttplate in those plans.

[Dave B]

I finally got a rivet that would work to pean out. What a pain in the neck getting the two halves to stay lighed up while peaning the rivet heads. I fially got them holding just have to braze them up.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I made this rifle back in 1968 and hammered out the two steel pieces and then riveted them together then brazed them.

[Dave B]

Nice job. I like your cresant shape matche what the early butt plates had with deepest part being centered in the butt stock.

[Dave B]

All brazed up

[rich pierce]

Looking good!

[helwood]

Greetings Dave,
I really like the extra effort you have gone to do it the 'ol way and for sharing it with all of us.  Most Excellent.
                        Thanks, Hank

[Matt Evans]

Nice job! Thanks for posting, very informative.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Great looking butt plate Dave B.

[Dave B]

Thanks guys. The first one i made back in 2006 was for my first try at a early full stock Hawken. After spending time at Cody, Glorietta and Musem of the fur trade i knew a whole bunch more how things should look. The longer i do this the more i find i dont know enough. I love the journey though.

[T.C.Albert]

What were the old ones brazed with? Copper?
Thanks,
T Albert

[Dave B]

T Albert, I can only speak to what I have seen so far with the originals that I have held or closly examined to date have been brass brazed. I think it was the late Jerry Huddleston that had told me about having seen some gunhardware or butt plates that were brazed with copper but can not rember the specifics now.

[rich pierce]

The one I saw off the gun was a J&S Hawken buttplate with brass in a lump inside the joint at the rivet; inner surface of the joint. The joint was so nicely done that without aggressive cleaning it would be hard to tell from the outside.

[Dave B]

Here is my second attempt at a 2 piece butt plate using the Family St Louis rifles example shared  earlier in this thread. The riveting required some gymnastics to get it secured. Note the angle of the rivet through the return being at almost 20 degrees. It was a pain to get the rivet secure with out malalignment of the two parts. I left the plate a little wide for that reason. I will be brazing it next.

[Taylorz1]

Dont tell anyone but the two times ive wanted a forged/brazed/riveted hawken butt plate I forged the two pieces, tack welded them then brazed and riveted. Herschel made it look so easy but Im no Herschel. 

[Dave B]

That makes me laugh. I was thinking that very thought tryin to keep the two pieces aligned while that rivet was being peaned down and they kept getting out of alignment. I finaly got them close enough that i could braze them.