Pre inlet Rifle Shoppe mess,looking for opinions/solutions

[alex e.]

On Rifle shoppe first model Bess.
Entry pipe.
First model Bess " parts set" from the rifle shoppe.
Pre inlet  disaster.
Two part question.
On the final, it's way over inlet.  Maybe  a light 1/16.
Should I try to peen it out?
And forward of the entry hole, maybe enlarge the rr channel
 width wise to hide the sin?
Every  parts set I've done from them seems more like a restoration from a hack,than new work.
I guess when you the only game in town, you can ship $#@* like this.
This is the polar opposite  of a Kibler set.
Building from a plank is so easier.
This is someone else's dream.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Ouch.  So anything around the rear portions/finial I would just pien out, looks very do-able.  The forward portion on the other hand - the first thing that comes to mind in terms of fast/easy would be either to (1) try to deepen the groove if possible and slightly re-inlet forward portion to disappear it, or (2) make a little brass ring to solder/braze to the front of the pipe to lengthen it, clean it up and disguise with a ring or two, and go that route.  OR, (3) cut off pipe carefully and strageteryically (  ) at finial, and make a new longer pipe to solder/braze in place.

This is not something I would trash a stock over.  I'd work it out somehow.

[alex e.]

And to top it off, RR hole and rr groove are different  elevations....
And slight off center.
That's ok. I've had two  from them where there was no re hole drilled.  11 years  and they still haven't answered my email  regarding that..
I do like the idea of solder an extension  of sorts.
If I can get another  bess pipe to cannibalize it would  definitely  look more pleasant

[Roger B]

My Rifle Shop Henry New English pattern stock was so fouled up that I just discarded it. Castings were good, though, & I used a Chambers lock, so all was not lost.
Roger B.

[44-henry]

If it were mine, I would just patch the area with a scrap of walnut from the same blank. After inletting and finishing it should just disappear. Peening should take care of the other end.

[Eric Kettenburg]

^^^^

That's another excellent idea also.

Almost everything is fixable!

[Bob Gerard]

Check out Dave Person's thread over in The Muzzleloading Forum on his current TRS Brown Bess build; he knows how to make things work.
Seems the problems you are facing are not unique to your kit.

[Scota4570]

Maybe TRS has a longer entry pipe?  Could the stock and pipe be from different originals?  Call Jess and ask him. Send your photo.  He will help.  He is patient, kind and extremely knowledgeable. 

Did the OP move the pipe aft to make the tail fit perfect?  It would have been easier to patch a little piece in for the tail. 

I am working on one of their parts sets now.   I must force myself to work at a glacial pace.  I check and recheck everything before I cut. 

For instance, I am installing the under lugs today.  None of the reference surfaces are parallel with any other.  The hook sides on the breech plug are not parallel The tang is upside down when setting up in the mill, so that is sketchy.  The flat for the the lock bolster is different too.  So I made my best guess and averaged all of it.  I cut the first lug dovetail.  I will use that surface to index off of for everything else. 

Every step is more or less like this, full of traps.  It is my understanding that they made castings from original guns.  That is great except that all the cast parts are undersized. 
 
I suspect the stock is off an original.  The pantograph master might be a copy of the original  It looks like the precarve is something made by a guy who worked by eye rather than by measurements.  Is that Jess or somebody at the Nock shop in 1810?

I work more like a machinist.  IF the surfaces are not squared and true it messes with my head.  I'd strongly prefer that the inlets be left off than be done wrong. 

That said I have worked three stocks for the same kit.  All three have a defect in the same place.  That is not OK.  The defect needs to he filled on the master.   Maybe the original has the defect?  I told them about it  and got another stock cut for me but it is defective in the same way again! 

 Also, various parts of the tang, trigger plate, trigger guard and thumb piece all interrelate in a way that has no tolerance for misalignment.  .  The stock is not cut so they can be aligned correctly.  The stock pre-inlets box you in to a compromise mess.
The bolts must be installed cockeyed to have it fit together at all.  The plans are incorrect in that respect.

It is all good fun to mock their parts sets.  The TRS processes are old school and not capable of much precision. They are relatively cheap.  The expectation should not be Kibler like perfection.   

[smart dog]

Hi Alex,
I am in sympathy with you all the way.  I am making the same musket and have the same issue.  I resolved it using 3 methods.  I moved the pipe back just a little so the gap in front was a hair line, then I peened the tang along the sides to widen it, and finally, I filled any small gaps with AcraGlas.   





On one side, there is still a short hairline gap right at the step, which could have been resolved by moving the pipe back but then also opening the gap in front.  You have to look really closely to see the gap and it likely will get filled with finish.  However, I am going to solder a sliver of brass to edge at the step, which will cover any gap.  The AcraGlas was less to fill any gaps and more to strengthen the mortise because the black walnut stock is really weak and shreds very easily. 

Alex, wait until you get to the trigger guard.  I eventually wiped out the machine inletting completely and inlet the guard from scratch after cleaning it up and straightening it.  The trigger plate was inlet off center and it did not line up with the guard.  All of that had to be dealt with.  Fortunately, the plate needed to be inlet quite a bit deeper than the machine marks so they all went away.  In the process, I lost about 1/10" of height through the lock area when compared with my measurements of an original pattern 1756.  That is acceptable and I am able to maintain historically correct proportions and architecture.  I am working from data and tracings of a musket that could have been used as early as Bunker Hill by the 63rd regiment.

 













Good luck, Alex.

dave

[Bob Roller]

There may be a real problem with operation of the machinery this duplication is done on.The Springfield rifles and spin offs I have owned and shot in the past all seemed to have a very good level of quality control.Today the equipment may be better but an operator may have
a problem.I have made 2 left and right Mantons of 2 different patterns with TRS castings and used my own mechanisms and they were OK
but now I wouldn't even consider that job.The 4 locks were found on a closet shelf by a nephew of the man I made them for and were never used.
Bob Roller

[alex e.]

Dave,
I lost a lot of the gap while inletting the pipe.my rr hole and groove are off center of each other. I had to go a bit deeper to accommodate  that issue.  A little bit of hammer time will probably suffice  the rest of it.
I still have this ugliness forward of it.
I'm either  thinking gluing a patch  of some kind. And finishing the inlet correctly.
Or canibalise a rr pipe  forward of the rear band,extending it enough to cover the poor inlet. I worry the soldered joint might not hold over time.
I'm convincing  myself  to do the wood patch..
I did the trigger/ triggerguard/ plate/escutcheon/ screw.  I learned that on a Bess, all the locations  matter.
( British  guns aren't  my thing)
End result  being escutcheon screw partially  in trigger plate. And a wood screw in the guard.
I thought about  moving it all after, but I had such a good trigger pull/operation  ,I thought I'd would be worse after.
Now I need to put something on the end of the trigger as the triggerguard bow barely retains the trigger.
Layout is everything here, The Brits weren't dumb.

Thank you  all for the input.

[reddogge]

Use silver solder. It won't go anywhere in your lifetime.

[kutter]

I just finished up a Queen Anne Musket from TRS.
It felt more like working on a restoration project than a new 'build'.
The stock inletting was gap-osis all over the place.
Some small areas were able to be fixed with peening the cast part. Others required the gap be fitted with a wood patch.
The tear-drop at the back of the left side of the lock panel was more than 1/2 of it's O/A height lower than the right hand side.
The square block on the pre-carve left for handy vise handling came in even more handy as a source for the matching wood.

RR thimble inlets were all oversize cut. Thumb plate cut oversize nearly all the way around
The sideplate inlet was a disaster. I tried the peening, but the odd shape had the metal
squirting in all different directions, so I tossed that aside.
I cleaned up that oversize inlet. Made a paper pattern of it and cut a new sideplate from 1/8" flat CRS to fit it.
Actually mine is a 2 piece side plate but fits together fine. Uses a small '3rd screw' at the extreme far end to hold the separate arm of it.

The lock wasn't all that bad to get together and working well.
I did have to make a new sear spring as the casting provides was only good for a pattern once it was heated red and pounded flat.
Some 1095 stock and and an OA torch allowed forging the 'eye ' screw loop.
The rest was just filing and polishing. Then red heat for bending and shaping to fit and pre-load positioning.
I did silver braze the separate pan to the plate after fitting. Some peening of the under side fender edges for a better fit was needed before the braze job.
It hardened very nicely(plate, hammer, tumbler, etc) quenched in used oil. They said it's 4140.
I drew it back a bit by eye w/the torch.
The springs and frizzen I quenched in room temp water. Then drew the springs back in lead at 740F.
The frizzen draw was done with OA at the base till the color just started to creep up the face of the frizzen.

Works and fires great. Hope QA is proud. Shot some Skeet with it.
A long way to get there though.

I'd do another, but do the stock from a blank this time.
I don't need their inletting skills.